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Athena

Buzzkill.
I got into a pretty exhausting Facebook argument over one of these tweets last week, so I thought it would be interesting to bring it over here and get people's opinions on the matter.

Last September, the hashtag #MasculinitySoFragile took off. Intended to simply point out the failures and dangers of the "masculine" archetype, many, many men took personal offense to this Twitter wave (ironically proving it to be true). I ran across one such individual.

The tweet in question: "#MasculinitySoFragile that it's more important to teach women to reject men politely than it is to teach men to accept rejection peacefully."

Apparently, this bitch is just fighting for the right to reject men coldly. Except, no, that's not it.

As we know from stories on this site, and projects like WhenWomenRefuse on Tumblr, a collection of stories of neutral or polite refusal resulting in harassment and violence, it's not a matter of chicks being uppity bitches. And, yet, many women get the impression that it's their responsibility to turn down advances in the most gentle way possible, rather than society cracking down on male entitlement.

There are lots of other fun tweets to discuss, though.

Do you have examples of your own? Guys, what do you think about this stuff?
 
Regardless of how the rejection is delivered, it is always the man's responsibility to accept the woman's decision and handle it like an adult. Now if the rejection is delivered rudely, then an equally rude retort might be hard to resist, but any man who stalks, threatens or otherwise harasses a woman is a defective loser.

I'm surprised that any sane, rational person would try to argue otherwise.
 
I've politely said no. Being polite = "She actually likes me, she's trying to be nice! I'll try again!" to some people. And there are some who won't get the hint until you scream fuck off while trying to taze them in the nuts. So you're damned if you do and if you don't.

#masculinitysofragile that a hashtag makes you lose your shit. It's the guys who get offended by this hashtag that have the weakest sense of masculinity. Like those "men going their own way" guys. Yeah... go your own way then and quit bitching about it.
 
Hmm, an interesting topic. Although I agree that there are a lot of examples of awful rejection handling by men around lately (#byefelipe on Instagram is another one that's depressing in its sheer breadth and volume of examples)... I don't know that I agree that the root cause is some perceived attack on the rejected man's masculinity.

I feel like it's more of a false sense of some strange entitlement complex. "Oh I'm a nice guy so I DESERVE this girl". Or as in my previous experience, "You don't get to decide when to end this".

I probably don't have to add much more here since my best personal example of this type of behavior has come to these pages directly to try to attack me and whatever else he seeks to accomplish (after I once again refused to engage him in conversation)... This sums it up perfectly for me:
any man who stalks, threatens or otherwise harasses a woman is a defective loser.
 
Rejection is in the eye of the beholder.

A mature man with good esteem will accept it for what it is. And it's no big deal. Heck, if a guy wants only one thing from a woman, he shouldn't waste her time by befriending her and dating her; he should just go find a fuck buddy.

The manner of the woman's rejection doesn't matter. It's nice to be polite, but if she wants to be rude...that's her choice.

Only punk-assed pussies would get upset over being told, No. In fact, the size of his outcry over rejection correlates to the size of his pussy.
 
I feel like it's more of a false sense of some strange entitlement complex. "Oh I'm a nice guy so I DESERVE this girl". Or as in my previous experience, "You don't get to decide when to end this".

Yesssss. There is definitely a substantial amount of that floating around. I blame media to an extent.

Now, you guys know I am not in the "horror movies create violence!" camp. But, what we've seen in relation to romantic interaction on screen has been consistently reinforced since Hollywood was created. We see attractive women with less attractive men. We see guys get the girl if they just faithfully hang out in the "friendzone" for long enough.

So, what happens when that doesn't work out in real life?

I do believe that a disturbing number of men think they are owed something by the women they interact with. Like, this "INCEL" or "Involuntary Celibacy" thing that's developed. Individuals, primarily men, aren't getting laid, and rather than looking at what they might be doing wrong, blame a modern landscape that does not drive women into the arms of providers.
 
@Athena, I really feel this is one of those made up issues. I'm sure a few people fit into every category I don't see it as a male issue, some females take rejection worse then males from what I've experienced
I'm sure it works both ways, personalities not male or female issue, mature people don't take everything personal. If someone falls apart over rejection, you made the right decision
This is the kind of Hashtag Gloria Steinem
would put out
 
Why would a woman or anyone else want to be anything but curteous and respectful when rejecting someones advances? I don't understand the beef/problem.
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Individuals, primarily men, aren't getting laid,

Where are men living or what physical deformities or mental defects do they have that they can't get laid?

I think the part of society that's not hip to the bar/club/internet dating-hookup site or simply "young people" scene is absurdly out of touch when it comes to just how easy and loose females are. I've known a shit ton of some of the ugliest, most awkward, weird fucks you can imagine and there's not a single one who had an ounce of trouble getting tail, and even decent looking tail. Dudes today don't even have to try hard. It's more of an issue of, "are you gonna try at all" vs "are you gonna try hard" when it comes to attracting an easy lay.

Now if a dude is desiring a serious relationship, that's differnet. But on the subject of merely "getting laid", i'm shocked there's any issue whatsoever or that any semi-normal man ever finds himself in a place where he can't get sex. You'd have to be suffering from some severe autism/aspergers or truly fucked up personality disorders or mental illness to find yourself in that boat, or simply be one of the laziest men on the planet(going outside is kind of a must, really the only must, when it comes to fucking when you're an able bodied person).
 
@Athena, I really feel this is one of those made up issues. I'm sure a few people fit into every category I don't see it as a male issue, some females take rejection worse then males from what I've experienced
I'm sure it works both ways, personalities not male or female issue, mature people don't take everything personal. If someone falls apart over rejection, you made the right decision
This is the kind of Hashtag Gloria Steinem
would put out

Sorry, Biteme. Honestly, I wish this were the case, but the stats don't lie. 1/3 of female murder victims are killed by a romantic partner or wanna be romantic partner. Only 2.5% of men are killed by the reverse.

Every year, a couple dozen trans women are killed by men who were attracted to them, hit on them, only to discover they used to be male. Countless more are beaten for that reason. Number of trans men who've been killed by women horrified to discover their new interest used to be female? Zero.

When's the last time you were forced to wait someone out at a bar, because you had gently rejected them earlier in the evening, and now they were standing outside waiting for you to leave, and you were worried about what might happen? Happened to me just three weeks ago. And when I happened in to my local watering hole last Friday, the bartender, who had let me stay that other evening as he closed up, mentioned seeing that guy around more often, and that I might think about some sort of weapon when I come down alone. I'm sure dudes run into that scenario regularly. :rolleyes:

The unfortunate fact is, whether we're polite or not, we are keenly aware that physical violence could be the result of rejecting a guy (so we tend to be polite). And, no, this particular issue doesn't tend to play out in reverse.

You'd have to be suffering from some severe autism/aspergers or truly fucked up personality disorders or mental illness to find yourself in that boat, or simply be one of the laziest men on the planet(going outside is kind of a must, really the only must, when it comes to fucking when you're an able bodied person).

Pretty much. I've had a few dudes "friendzone" themselves to me... buddy up to me, assuming that, if they stick it out long enough, I'm eventually going to fall madly in love with them or something. All that effort, but what they DON'T do? Ask me out.

I understand that equality has made some aspects of dating or hooking up tricky. I think it's given a lot of guys the belief that they shouldn't have to pursue a woman. And, yeah, maybe that's fair. But the reality of the situation is that most women still want to be pursued, so if you don't, you've just created a Mexican standoff with 60% of the field.
 
Oh, snap. Let me get popcorn and settle in. I'm willing to bet money this thread will show quite a few men with fragile masculinity.
Yyyeeeaaaah
 
As a white kid, I've played enough basketball to get used to rejection. As a black kid? I don't know-try swimming. I believe we need to teach people how to handle rejection better. Poor parenting is the root of it lol.
 
I'm not saying some males aren't afraid of rejection or react violently. I think those have an abusive or inferior personality issue to bargain with. I feel the stats are correct but only because of the physical strength deference, females enact deferent methods to get revenge and males don't usually bother with restraint orders or reporting the abuseive behavior, which wouldn't be manly;)

Edit
It's a well known fact that all you gorgeous women bring out the beast in us homely men
 
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Yeah, this is a fairly new aspect for me, what's THIS shit all about? Am I supposed to read his mind, and then if I get it wrong suffer the wrath? smdh, I am really having trouble figuring out the "new, 21st century" man. :shrug:
Look down, if that's not a banana in his pocket he's interested
 
I'm not saying some males aren't afraid of rejection or react violently. I think those have an abusive or inferior personality issue to bargain with. I feel the stats are correct but only because of the physical strength deference, females enact deferent methods to get revenge and males don't usually bother with restraint orders or reporting the abuseive behavior, which wouldn't be manly;)

Edit
It's a well known fact that all you gorgeous women bring out the beast in us homely men

It's true that "reverse" domestic violence is wildly under-reported, and it's totally a byproduct of #MasculinitySoFragile. I've seen it on this very site. A guy reports perfectly valid domestic violence, and he's told to "man-up" or "quit being a pussy". As a result, men tolerate untold amounts of absolutely atrocious behavior.

I've got a friend who recently went through a divorce. Prior to it getting filed, there was an instance when his wife, furious over 6 unwashed glasses in the sink (he worked from home and I guess dishes were his responsibility), began screaming, making threats (non-physical) and threw some things. The very first thing that went through my mind was, "WTF. If a dude did something like that, her friends would be begging her to run for the hills." It shouldn't get a pass just because she can't hurt him that bad.
 
I think sluts...if a woman is dressed provocatively (dressed to provoke sexual interest) as opposed to modestly than it is going to hurt when she rejects you. Some women like to tease...Like to give off the...I like to fuck vibe...just not with you! Its a game, They do it because they hate men or like to be victims which is actually the bigger issue. Some women are bitches that deserve whatever negative attention they receive on account that they invite it in. I know its not the going to be the most popular opinion here...too fucking bad, these dynamics exist.
 
What happened to SAYING something about it? I'm not going to assume anything. If you want me in your life as more than a friend, SAY so! I'm not going to make an ass out myself trying to figure it out!
If a dude wants to hang out with you, he definitely wants to fuck you :shrug:
 
began screaming, making threats (non-physical) and threw some things. The very first thing that went through my mind was, "WTF. If a dude did something like that, her friends would be begging her to run for the hills." It shouldn't get a pass just because she can't hurt him that bad.

Part of the problem is the nagging, uppity, bitch gf/wife has become a socially accepted thing. This archetype has become a huge part of American culture, it's found throughout our movies/sitcoms/etc. It's joked about, it's celebrated even. It's normal, accepted behavior for a woman to a massive amount of our society. These aren't viewed as warning signs, it's not viewed as verbal or pyschological abuse, it's just a woman being a bitch, which to many is normal. Men/women alike put up with it, think it's not as big a deal as it truly is, and those guilty of it feel they're perfectly within a normal/correct range of behavior.

Men get away with pyschological/verbal abuse at a startling rate as well. Nobody takes that shit seriously. But it's not viewed as normal or as a joke on that side of the coin.

I think sluts...if a woman is dressed provocatively (dressed to provoke sexual interest) as opposed to modestly than it is going to hurt when she rejects you. Some women like to tease...Like to give off the...I like to fuck vibe...just not with you! Its a game, They do it because they hate men or like to be victims which is actually the bigger issue. Some women are bitches that deserve whatever negative attention they receive on account that they invite it in. I know its not the going to be the most popular opinion here...too fucking bad, these dynamics exist.

Some women are prob doing that. The majority of women who dress like sluts though, are in fact sluts.
 
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Hmmmm I have to say I am experiencing a first as I agree with @biteme (I think). I do believe women have a lot of trouble handling rejection as well as men. I think though, women use another different manners of not handling it well. They may not murder their object of desire but they will cry, beg, and plead. They might use their children together against the man and they might even threaten suicide or use other emotionally manipulative maneuvers.

Of course, I would rather be made to feel guilty than murdered but still - I do think there area lot of self entitled women out there as well. They too feel that they deserve the man they want and if he rejects them, they do not always handle it well.

Furthermore, I'd like to see some stats on gay relationships. I mean 2 men, 2 women, do they experience the same statistics? Like, are gay women much less likely to attack their suitor than gay men?
 
Hmmmm I have to say I am experiencing a first as I agree with @biteme (I think). I do believe women have a lot of trouble handling rejection as well as men.

Of course. This thread is, by no means, meant to suggest that women are angels who are the constant victims of the men in their lives.

But the scope is #MasculinitySoFragile. It wasn't meant to make a statement about what women are at all. I cited one example, but there are other good ones that have nothing to do with women.

"#MasculinitySoFragile men can't do anything unless we bless it with a "man" word. Manbun, guyliner, man-bag..."

"#MasculinitySoFragile Guys have to say "no homo" when showing affection to another guy, which is like saying "no Oedipus" when u hug ur mom."

"#MasculinitySoFragile that boys are taught to hold in all their emotions and that's why boys are far more likely to die by suicide."

The thread was meant to have people take a look at our rigidly held masculine archetype, and what damage it's doing to society. Does it have any use?

I posted this on Facebook, recently. When I saw the original go around, I didn't actively cheer it on, but I generally agreed with it. And then I saw this version, and it made me think. I shared it with the following thought: "Can I get an "amen"? I shudder to think what skill set society thinks should accompany my particular look. "Shudder" because I've already got a pretty good idea."

Women enjoy anti slut shaming initiatives, anti fat shaming initiatives, really, constant initiatives designed at making us feel good about who we are because society often doesn't. Might we be leaving men behind?

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I think sluts...if a woman is dressed provocatively (dressed to provoke sexual interest) as opposed to modestly than it is going to hurt when she rejects you. Some women like to tease...Like to give off the...I like to fuck vibe...just not with you! Its a game, They do it because they hate men or like to be victims which is actually the bigger issue. Some women are bitches that deserve whatever negative attention they receive on account that they invite it in. I know its not the going to be the most popular opinion here...too fucking bad, these dynamics exist.

I'm not sure if you even realize, but this is the exact twisted psychology that leads men to harass/assault women who reject them.

I should not have to base the way I dress on the way men might react to it. I'm an attractive, tall woman with a pretty sweet rack. When I leave the house, sometimes, it's in a miniskirt with fishnets and a top that exposes some cleavage. This is not because I hate men (seriously...?). And I certainly don't like to be a victim (and am pretty much never because I'm sharp and safe). It's because I like what I see when I look in the mirror. My makeup - for me. My nails - for me. My clothes - for me.

There's no game about it. I might like to fuck. DO, in fact. But that doesn't mean I should be available to anyone who finds me attractive. That's like saying if you drive a nice car, you should be giving rides to anyone who asks. Derp.
 
If a woman is dressed Provacativley as opposed to modestly..then she gets the attention she invites in. Would you @gatekeeper be satisfied with yourself if you didn't dress in a provocative way? You're wrong, it is a game...its the look at me, but don't you come near me you bastard game. Some women die from playing it, or otherwise get harassed.
 
Women enjoy anti slut shaming initiatives, anti fat shaming initiatives, really, constant initiatives designed at making us feel good about who we are because society often doesn't. Might we be leaving men behind?
Honestly, most men I know wouldn't give a shit what others thought of them based on their appearance/manner of dress, whether they were seen giving a hug to another man, or even crying in a public place.

I do know guys who are sensitive to those things, and when confronted about it they say, "I have pride in the way I appear to others," or some such nonsense, but I simply see it as them being insecure and inhibited by it.
 
If a woman is dressed Provacativley as opposed to modestly..then she gets the attention she invites in. Would you @gatekeeper be satisfied with yourself if you didn't dress in a provocative way? You're wrong, it is a game...its the look at me, but don't you come near me you bastard game. Some women die from playing it, or otherwise get harassed.

I didn't comment in this thread, but if you're asking me personally, I'm pretty comfortable with the way I dress any time anywhere. At nearly 53, my idea of provocative has changed (no deep plunges, no minis/micro-minis), but I still pull off sexy when I want to and I personally expect the attention I get, whether it's guys/gals asking me to dance, sending drinks to me at our table, the occasional slap on the ass, "accidentally" bumping into me on the way to the bar or bathroom, or even the occasional, "Damn, you look so good I wanna turn you upside down and eat you like a watermelon," or "Gd, I'd drink her bath water," etc. I just take it in stride. Luckily, I've never had a problem.

But, I also have a heart and I've never been the type to be harsh when a non-arrogant man or woman has sincerely come up to me to ask me out, to buy me a drink, or ask if I wanna "get outta here and go somewhere else." I also use a lot of non-shitty, non-sarcastic humor to help put people at ease. I'd never want to make someone feel like an ass with a rejection. May sound old-fashioned, but I still believe in the Golden Rule when someone is kind enough to let you know they admire you. Just a me thing.
 
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I didn't comment in this thread, but if you're asking me personally, I'm pretty comfortable with the way I dress any time anywhere. At nearly 53, my idea of provocative has changed (no deep plunges, no minis/micro-minis), but I still pull off sexy when I want to and I personally expect the attention I get, whether it's guys/gals asking me to dance, sending drinks to me at our table, the occasional slap on the ass, "accidentally" bumping into me on the way to the bar or bathroom, or even the occasional, "Damn, you look so good I wanna trun you upside down and eat you like a water melon," or "Gd, I'd drink her bath water," etc. I just take it in stride. Luckily, I've never had a problem.

But, I also have a heart and I've never been the type to be harsh when a non-arrogant man or woman has sincerely come up to me to ask me out, to buy me a drink, or ask if I wanna "get outta here and go somewhere else." I also use a lot of non-shitty, non-sarcastic humor to help put people at ease. I'd never want to make someone feel like an ass with a rejection. May sound old-fashioned, but I still believe in the Golden Rule when someone is kind enough to let you know they admire you. Just a me thing.


Sorry! Thanks for your feed back all the same!
 
If a woman is dressed Provacativley as opposed to modestly..then she gets the attention she invites in. Would you @gatekeeper be satisfied with yourself if you didn't dress in a provocative way? You're wrong, it is a game...its the look at me, but don't you come near me you bastard game. Some women die from playing it, or otherwise get harassed.

I am not dressed in a provocative manner 98% of the time. I work in manufacturing. Today, I'm wearing a Freddy Krueger T-shirt with a black hoodie over it, jeans, and steel toes. But if I go out one or two Fridays a month and feel like dressing up, that's my right. Not a right? To harass a woman because you're making baseless assumptions about what her clothing is saying to you. It's not saying any more to you than a Ferrari is. Sure, you're free to ask for a ride, but if you don't get one, you don't throw a fucking fit about it.

And what is this, "Look at me, but don't come near me," bit? I, in all of my 33 years, have NEVER ONCE seen this play out. I have NEVER ONCE seen a woman in a low-cut top say, "Hey, buddy, my eyes are up here!" Women don't mind if a guy looks. They start minding if a guy stares because that's creepy, and they definitely mind if a guy touches without permission because that's assault.

But you, miss, are swinging at ghosts, here.

Honestly, most men I know wouldn't give a shit what others thought of them based on their appearance/manner of dress, whether they were seen giving a hug to another man, or even crying in a public place.

Do you know many young men? I'm only asking because I generally understand you to be older than I am, and it's possible that these issues are cropping up more dramatically with young men as a result of the new level of equality. I mean, I bet you don't know any guys who rock a man-bun or a murse, right? So, I guess what I'm trying to get at is, is there any benefit to trying to keep young men in the traditionally defined "masculinity" box, and shaming those who step outside of it?
 
I know guys with a man bun. My husband travels and has a satchel. I have three sons that treat women respectfully. I think it is a generational thing though...there used to be shame in being a slut or a whore but that is cool now. So its not a surprise to me that men are hurt or otherwise confused by the rejection of women who appear through the language they use or the clothe they wear or even the places they go, and who give of the vibe of being available for sex. Provocative clothing is called provocative clothing because it...Provokes a sexual response, or otherwise makes a woman look available...I can see why men are confused.
 
however you are attacking others for the very things you wish to peacefully express which makes you hypocritical. i think my tits are great i have a great body therefore i want to show it off because it makes me happy. great good for you i'm glad but if you go out and someone else thinks differently they are also allowed to express themselves verbally.

Um...? I think your wires got crossed, here. We're not talking about what people are free to say to a woman. We're talking about reacting violently to or harassing her (also illegal) for getting rejected.

At no point have I said that a man is not free to hit on me. He absolutely is. And when it happens, I am gracious and polite when I turn someone down. In fact, I've got a schtick. I offer a gushing smile, tell them I'm flattered, flash the ring on my finger and explain that I am quite married. And, what's interesting about that is, quite often, a simple, "I'm flattered, but no thank you," doesn't work, because a lot of men don't respect a woman's agency to reject such a proposal herself. You have to "belong" to someone else to make it valid. An unfortunate fact I've learned over the years.

your personal opinions are not immutable facts augmented by your own greatness anymore than the opinions of anyone else. if two guys want yo say "no homo" before huggingwho gives a shit? why is that important to you? what physical harm does it cause to you?

So, I don't get to be concerned with issues in the world unless they affect me directly? Sorry, but I disagree. Furthermore, since you've failed to make the connection, let me do that for you.

I would assert that the mechanism that drives men to say things like "no homo" when they hug another man, or hold their emotions in, or get told that they have to be able to chop a tree down to dress a certain way, might just be the same mechanism that causes some to react violently when rejected, or physically control their women, or commit suicide at a dramatically higher rate.

Again, does the masculinity box have any social benefit, or is it outweighed by its negatives?
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I know guys with a man bun. My husband travels and has a satchel. I have three sons that treat women respectfully. I think it is a generational thing though...there used to be shame in being a slut or a whore but that is cool now. So its not a surprise to me that men are hurt or otherwise confused by the rejection of women who appear through the language they use or the clothe they wear or even the places they go, and who give of the vibe of being available for sex. Provocative clothing is called provocative clothing because it...Provokes a sexual response, or otherwise makes a woman look available...I can see why men are confused.

We're getting closer!

Yes, that is all quite valid. But we're not talking about men simply being confused. If you're dressed like a cop, someone might just ask you for help! We get that.

But, me dressed like I'm available never means I'm available to everyone, or even anyone, necessarily. Who I'm available to is my choice to make, and one a man has the responsibility to respect. You've got three sons.. Is it okay for one of them to hit a woman who turned him down, simply because she's dressed provocatively? You say they treat women respectfully, so I'm guessing that's a "no". That's what I'm trying to get at.

And, apparently, I did a really poor job explaining that up front. Mah bad. :p
 
True story:
My ex and I, were shopping one day n this guy walks by carrying the Dooney purse I had been searching for, FOR AGES.
I freaked out n ran up to him- I had to know where he got it!
My ex stood there, jawdropped cuz he had been listening to me bitch about this purse for quite awhile. Then to see a guy carrying it completely blew his mind. Ex was all "did that just happen? Did u really just ask that dude where he got his purse?" I shot back with "yep. Sure did, and guess where we are going next. Thank God he could tell me where it was. I have to have it!"
This wasn't a satchel. It was a Dooney & Burke purse that I REALLY wanted.
Guess who got their purse? :D

AFTER A MAN TOLD ME WHERE IT WAS AT. Wish my ex woulda cared a wee bit more, about my desire for this specific purse. But then he woulda been all "uhhhh no homo, I found your purse"
no point to this story... But this thread made me relive that humor.
I don't even have the ex anymore. But guess what I do still have... Yep. That fucking purse. :p

Ok carry on
 
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