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Do children have the mental and emotional development necessary to identify as transgender?

  • Yes

    Votes: 13 56.5%
  • No

    Votes: 6 26.1%
  • Depends on environmental influences

    Votes: 4 17.4%

  • Total voters
    23
  • Poll closed .

slogan71

Active Member
I don't watch a wide variety of TV. The older I get the more I find I enjoy documentaries and history type shows. The scary part is I used to laugh at my mom for watching that stuff.
but I digress...
I was channel surfing and came across a show coming to TLC called , "I am Jazz".
From what I could gather (mind you I only saw a preview) Jazz was born a boy and it looks like there are 2 brothers close in age. There was a snipit of interview with what looked like Jazz's brothers and possibly grandparents.
The brothers seemed very accepting of the fact that Jazz was born their brother but now identifies as female. They referred to Jazz as their sister as if she had always been a sister.
The grandparents also seemed accepting and indicated that Jazz felt female from a young age.
When you answer the poll question please try to leave your opinion of right or wrong, holy or unholy etc.
Instead think of how old you were when you started noticing the opposite sex and when you began developing sexuall (physically and emotionally). The age at which you were no longer a child but were man or woman.
We know physical and emotional sexual development happens much sooner than brain development. The age at which you began this development is probably years before you developed the ability to reason, think and make good decisions.
Now think about sexual orientation. Do you think a child is capable of having a transgender orientation? Is there a particular age or stage of development which should happen before a person can legitimately identify as being a gender other than what they were born with?
This was one of those "brain tornado" moments. My thumbs are flying trying to get all my thoughts out.
Please excuse any errors in wording or terminology. I have a cousin who is gay but I have never been exposed to a transgender person. Please feel free to correct my use of terms and know I meant no disrespect.
 
Before I answer the poll, I have to say that i have been babysitting my almost 9 year old niece and she's about as sexual as a rock. She knows the difference in boys and girls and I must have tried to ignore more Justin Beiber videos than I even knew existed today. But as for sex or sexual orientation I doubt she could even cotton on to what I was talking about.

I also have a good friend whose 18 year old granddaughter came out (if that is the correct term) as transgender when she was about 12, she started high school as a male and just recently graduated as a male, with all kinds of honors, but was told he could not use his male name, even tho it had been changed legally. (They did settle that, and he graduated with his new name.)

I do see both sides of this, I just don't think a child younger than 12-13 can really know, maybe they know something is sitting funny but to just announce at 4-5-6 that I'm a boy but I want to be a girl (or vice-versa) I just can't see that. I feel that sometimes it's in the parent's agenda, attention, or whatever, to push an ambivalent child into something that they don't necessarily understand completely.

I don't have a big problem with it, because I do understand it can happen, but if he was my child I would tread carefully and not try to sway him one way or the other and just see if it continues and if by 12-13 then I might be persuaded to go with it.

I don't know I like to be careful, maybe too careful. But there it is.
 
It's a feeling, its what you identify with, it's what makes sense. As I child loved dresses, and mud. I was a cheerleader and a drummer. I crocheted and played johnny tackle. I identified with what felt right for me from the word go. How's that different from a child identifying as a female even if her parts say she's male. It doesn't, I was raised in a household where females were expected to behave in a "ladylike" fashion at all times. My parents finally gave up, it wasn't going to happen. Everybody has their own beat and they're going to march to it.
 
I saw a promo for that show, I'm not much into reality series but I remember there was a 60 Minutes segment on her a couple of years ago in 2009 which was very, very interesting.

Transgender is not sexual orientation its the gender identity of a person so even at 2/3 yo kids can know there not in the right body.

I worked at a school a couple of years ago where there was a Kindergarten student who identified as male but was born female. His parents were amazing they remind me of Jazz's parents, they went out of their way to answer questions and help inform all the staff before school started. He was happy and healthy, that's great and if he changed his mind later that would be fine too.

I think the research says that the majority of kids who show are gender-nonconforming do stop before puberty.
So yes, it's a very complex situation and if it was my own child I would be hesitant of starting hormonal treatment at puberty but I trust each teenager could make a decision (to start or wait until they're older) with the support of their family and multitudes of medical staff. Obviously with long term psychology counselling support before and continuing.



Sexual orientation as I said is a whole different aspect, for me I was 9 when I first realised that my feelings about my female friends weren't the way they thought. I have old journals/letters/diaries from year 6 (age 11/12) I suspected I was a lesbian though I'd never met anyone who was openly LGBT.
I felt very conflicted being Catholic, I'd never been one for prayer but I prayed that I would be normal and for most of my teens I convinced myself that I could change my orientation, which only resulted in me becoming depressed.
I told friends when I was 19 and waited til I was 24 to tell my Catholic church-going parents (they've become more liberal as they've gotten older)
 
I'm trying to understand so bear with me. I think I understand how a girl might know that she is attracted to females and may be lesbian, I assume it probably happened the same way when I realized I was attracted to males, so I do see that as a natural progression.

It the gender Identity crisis I have a little more difficulty with.
How do you know that you don't just have a boy who really likes to do girl stuff. As a child my sons used to play with dolls and dress up and play a sorta house type game, but they also liked to play ball and roughhouse and play in the dirt. It never bothered me one way or another what they were doing as long as they were happy and occupied. So how do you go from your boy likes to do girl things to him wanting to be a girl when he really has no idea about such things if you don't express it to him.

I have seen parents who have such ideas of what their children should be or want them to be that they've traumatized them. How do we know that we're not pushing an agenda onto our children?

One parent wanted his boy to be pitcher on the baseball team, child was neither talented nor inclined to pitch but daddy would have him out on the field, mercilessly throwing balls at this kid's chest for him to catch that he had him crying to go home every day. The coach for the team finally threw the daddy off the field, but he never stopped trying to make the kid something he was not. Which was the talented athlete that daddy was in high school, but daddy was just not good enough for the majors, so he wanted to make sure that son was.

I always told my kids that I wanted them to be happy, I hope I could have embraced this as completely as my friend has embraced her transgender grandson. I admire her and her grandson.

Sorry it got so long, but I really want to understand.
 
i do understand about boys and girls dressing like the opposite gender, I personally know a guy who wears skirts, he calls it a kilt, but it's still a skirt. But as far as I know, and I haven't asked him since it's none of my business, he's all man.

But as for Shiloh Jolie-Pitt, how do any of us know that this child hasn't been talked into something that was never in her mind to start with. She simply likes dressing like a boy, could be simple as that. At some point she might go, I'm tired of doing this, I wanna dress like a fairy princess now. But if the parents have an agenda, I'm not necessarily talking about Brangelina here, to get their faces in the spotlight, or they simply want the noteriety of having a transgender child, how do we know that they haven't convinced the child that they are a boy trapped in a girl's body.

I don't have an issue with transgender adults or even teenagers, they are old enough and have experienced enough life to be able to make that choice. I just don't think a small child could or should be able to make such a life altering choice as this at such a young age.

I remember wanting to be a runway model when I was about 6 and I also remember wanting to be able to pee standing up, so I could pee against the trees in the back yard. What if my mother had taken that as a sign that I was transgender and steered me towards more boyish things instead of just letting my ideas die a natural death as they did. I can assure you that there are times I wished I was a man because men just seem to get along a bit easier in a male dominated world. But I've never wanted to change my gender so seriously I'd have reassignment surgery.

Anyway I'm putting my soapbox up for the night. I really am just searching for enlightenment.
 
how do any of us know that this child hasn't been talked into something that was never in her mind to start with. She simply likes dressing like a boy, could be simple as that. At some point she might go, I'm tired of doing this, I wanna dress like a fairy princess now. But if the parents have an agenda, I'm not necessarily talking about Brangelina here, to get their faces in the spotlight, or they simply want the noteriety of having a transgender child, how do we know that they haven't convinced the child that they are a boy trapped in a girl's body.
Exactly what I was going to point out.

My knowledge of transgender issues is limited to what I have read or seen on TV, so please bear with me.

I'm not discounting it across the board for children, that would be stupid and close-minded, rather I wanted to point out that I've seen some examples on TV where is appeared more that the parents were enjoying the notoriety rather than encouraging their child. Like having a transgendered child has become the new "it" thing, like ADHD was, autism was.

I know that some children are transgender, that they knew young that they were, but in the same breath I've seen interviews with parents of some children that their actions and words as well as their child's demeanor has made me question exactly what was going on: transgender versus a "phase" (sorry, best term I could come up with) of a child trying something different, and the parents liked the attention that their unique child brought them and have run with it.
 
I'm not discounting it across the board for children, that would be stupid and close-minded

Thank you because I'm not discounting it either, I know about children born intersexed and really not knowing what sex they truly are, so to discount it out of hand is stupid and narrow-minded. I was trying to get across exactly what you said, how do we know that it's not a parent pushing the parent's agenda onto the kids. It happens alot, and kids are confused and parents are god to them, so what to believe.

I guess we just have to go with the flow, but I really think some of these kids are victims of their parents, reading here, proves that some parents are capable of anything.
 
Thank you because I'm not discounting it either, I know about children born intersexed and really not knowing what sex they truly are, so to discount it out of hand is stupid and narrow-minded. I was trying to get across exactly what you said, how do we know that it's not a parent pushing the parent's agenda onto the kids. It happens alot, and kids are confused and parents are god to them, so what to believe.

I guess we just have to go with the flow, but I really think some of these kids are victims of their parents, reading here, proves that some parents are capable of anything.

I think you are correct. Most of the time that is what it is. Some of them should be investigated.
 
I've been following Josie's Journey on facebook. Josie was assigned male at birth. I think she's 11.
Her mom has been totally accepting. When Josie came out, they went shopping. She looks happy in what she's wearing. Now she's growing out her hair.

Sadly, grandma and grandpa don't understand. They sent her boys clothes for her birthday.
 
As was said above, there are those rare instances where something went physically wrong(genetics, hormones, etc) but most of the time, these cases just sound like Munchausen by proxy.
 
I think it's sad that kids are even worrying about gender roles and where fit in. When I was a kid, my parents bought mostly gender neutral toys, avoided going to pink for girls, blue for boys route, and let me get whatever clothes worked for me. I would get a build-your-own mechanical car set and a doll because I liked them both. Even though I mostly played outside with the boys when I was really small, there was never a "gender role" associated with it. I didn't worry about whether something was "boy" or "girl" related. Gender roles didn't exist to me, and I have to wonder why the issue is even ingrained in kids as young as 5. Kids should be whoever the hell they are, not worrying about their gender role. I think some people forget that every boy has some stereotypically feminine attributes, and vice versa. There is no need to stick a label on it until the kid grows up and chooses his own path.

I have a few close transgender friends that are in their 20's and are still striving to figure it all out. Most of them had questions about their identity in the single digit age, but it just wasn't that relevant to their lives yet so they carried on and eventually found their niche. I do think that parents often do have an agenda to be all "super accepting" and in the process accidentally pressure their kids into committing to one label or another. Kids shouldn't need labels just yet in any way. They'll have years to label themselves and everyone around them. It's just unfortunate that their minds even are filled with these issues so early when they should just be worrying about doing whatever the fuck they want, no labels or roles attached.
 
I've grown to find conversations regarding gender/sexuality/sex irritating as fuck. A vast majority of the conversations I have had begin with genuine confusion (and maybe ignorance), and descend into chaos. I am not faulting you for your wording by any means, @slogan71 , and I think I may have even mentioned the following in one of the 'political correctness' threads, but...they are distinct concepts. I feel this must be established before any discussion, and all parties must agree, or it's not going anywhere. Your gender is not your sexuality, your sexuality is not your biological sex, your biological sex is not your gender. Identification is fluid.

I do not have children (never will, hope to God), but imposing a gender identity onto my kid probably wouldn't work for me because it's not how I work. I know, this could be absurd of me to humour, because I know we're all wired to procreate, protect our kids, all that shit. Yet if they wish to fall into typical gender roles (boys = football, girls = dance), sure, why not? But I would never discourage atypicality. If my son wanted to join ballet, or my daughter wanted to play lacrosse, I don't care.

Identifying as male or female is not synonymous with identifying as a man or a woman, and I see this misconception within this thread. To be transexual is not to be transgender, and for asinine reasons many of us use 'transexual' and 'transgender' interchangeably (this can be seen in medicine as well, which is also irritating as fuck).

TL;DR - I support any gender identity in children, but I do not consider their sexuality or biological reassignment until teenage years.
 
@brokenandtwisted
I know this subject has probably been beaten to death and probably nit in the nicest ways. Please let me explain.
I am a nurse and I work with children. I recently, about a year ago changed fields. Before kids, I worked with inmates.
I believe everyone who comes to me deserves holistic care and respect.
I make an honest attempt to create a relationship with patients from the first encounter. If you aren't willing to meet someone on their level then you won't be able to effectively care for them.
I could have googled the information but I would rather learn from people who have the experience and knowledge to help me be more effective.
I saw "Jazz" advertised and I realized that working with kids makes it possible I could face this situation.
I am truly ignorant in my communication about sex, sexuality and gender identity. I am looking only to learn and be more effective in life. :)
 
OK for the most part we seem to agree about boys playing with dolls and girls playing with trucks and that is great! I personally was a tomboy and no amount of dolling has ever changed that.
@CLouise did you have enough knowledge to understand some people were homosexual? How confused did it make you trying to figure it out? Was it frustrating having little support?
 
Cate Jenner was a shock to me but only because I remember the Olympics and the Wheaties boxes (I been around a looong time).
I can't imagine feeling like you were in the wrong body in that era. It must have been like a living a lie especially for a star athlete.
That's another thing...
When I talk about Cate and the past, do I say, "Back when Cate was an Olympian" or "When Cate was known as Bruce"?
Its all so confusing
 
As was said above, there are those rare instances where something went physically wrong(genetics, hormones, etc) but most of the time, these cases just sound like Munchausen by proxy.
I'd like you to elaborate, please.
 
Cate Jenner was a shock to me but only because I remember the Olympics and the Wheaties boxes (I been around a looong time).
I can't imagine feeling like you were in the wrong body in that era. It must have been like a living a lie especially for a star athlete.
That's another thing...
When I talk about Cate and the past, do I say, "Back when Cate was an Olympian" or "When Cate was known as Bruce"?
Its all so confusing
Seems simple enough, Bruce past, Cate current, won a medal as Bruce now lives as Cate
 
I'd like you to elaborate, please.

Attention is what they're after and they will seek it from wherever. From the media, from Facebook or other social networks, and even from doctors (by claiming their child has a medical condition they don't actually have.)
 
As was said above, there are those rare instances where something went physically wrong(genetics, hormones, etc) but most of the time, these cases just sound like Munchausen by proxy.
From a purely scientific/nursing standpoint, I think there can certainly be what doctors refer to as "crossed wiring".
We see chemical imbalances of hormones in many disorders as well as disorders that are obviously neurological in nature but have not been clearly defined. There are disorders of the nervous system that would remind you of an electrical short or "cross wiring".
I don't see why that couldn't be the case in at least some instances.
Munchausen disorder (just so we are all on the same page) is a mental health disorder where a person creates health problems for themselves simply for the attention; even to the point of purposely harming themselves.
Munchausen by proxy is a disorder in which the person creates these health problems for someone in their care to get attention for themselves.
There have been cases of by proxy over the years ranging from a mom smothering 3 infants and claiming sids to a grandmother poisoning her granddaughter and pretending it was cancer.
To truly be diagnosed as by proxy the motive must exclusively be attention.
Certainly if parents have planted and encouraged the idea of being transsexual purely for attention it could be diagnosed as by proxy.
 
@CLouise did you have enough knowledge to understand some people were homosexual? How confused did it make you trying to figure it out? Was it frustrating having little support?
I definitely knew at 9 what gay meant it was something discussed on the playground, bus home with the HS kids, this was circa 1999 so we knew a couple of celebrities Ellen, Elton John etc.

It was pretty confusing and I had my ups and downs as any teenager does. I purposefully choice to focus on school and said I'd never date during HS. For most of my teens I made a point of simply not thinking about it too much.
I'm from a fairly large family but not a single other LGBT, 2 boys in my year came out, they were the only gay people I'd knew until I was 18 so looking back I really wished I had an actual role model in my life.

It was confusing but I rationalised my feelings in ways that are completely irrational but aligned with being heterosexual. At 13/14 I'd fantasising about a woman but put myself in as the man, lol so it made it okay. I also genuinely didn't think I looked or acted like lesbian 'should' because I focused on the stereotypes.

Thankfully tv caught up, I watched every show with a lesbian character, ER, Buffy, The L word etc. When I was a bit older 17/18 I had online friends who I could talk to. I moved away for University and stopped going to Church but even then with a LGBT support group it took time to feel comfortable, realising I was still gay even if I didnt act on it.
 
For my family, we knew something was different about Tyler at 3. The thing is its not as easy as you think. Have you ever tried to force a 3 yr old to do anything? It doesn't work so you're thinking she's a tomboy so what? You dont say anything you just want them happy and comfortable. Time moves on and anger issues come up. The child starts being seen as different at 9 or 10, so we moved to a different state, I told Tyler he can pick whatever kind of girl he wants to be. He tried being feminine, it didn't fit, so then he tried being a gay female, until he was 17 and finally said I'm male. We changed his name to Tyler and he is living HIS soul. Your first thought is not oh transgender! And let me assure you, no parent would want their child to deal with this pain of hating your body for being wrong and feeling like an alien. I want my child alive, with me and happy, and I will support his soul any way I can.
 
For my family, we knew something was different about Tyler at 3. The thing is its not as easy as you think. Have you ever tried to force a 3 yr old to do anything? It doesn't work so you're thinking she's a tomboy so what? You dont say anything you just want them happy and comfortable. Time moves on and anger issues come up. The child starts being seen as different at 9 or 10, so we moved to a different state, I told Tyler he can pick whatever kind of girl he wants to be. He tried being feminine, it didn't fit, so then he tried being a gay female, until he was 17 and finally said I'm male. We changed his name to Tyler and he is living HIS soul. Your first thought is not oh transgender! And let me assure you, no parent would want their child to deal with this pain of hating your body for being wrong and feeling like an alien. I want my child alive, with me and happy, and I will support his soul any way I can.
Thank you for sharing I can see its still very emotional for you but I am glad you joined in.
When you told your son he could be any kind of girl he wanted , did that increase his frustration? Was there rebellion or did he try being a girl? I can imagine he must have felt like he was lying to himself.
Do you have other children? If so how did they deal with it?
 
Tyler was born a female, he had not expressed his transgender feelings at that point. There was anger and rebellion but he was 13 so that's starting anyway. I had an older son 7 yrs older and he was fine with it. We just wanted him happy. I can guarantee you if your child is not transgender, no matter what they do in childhood, it will not continue through puberty, you have to look at the psychology of kids, wanting to fit in, rebelling, just let them be who they are, they will figure it out
 
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Attention is what they're after and they will seek it from wherever. From the media, from Facebook or other social networks, and even from doctors (by claiming their child has a medical condition they don't actually have.)
Meh. Your opinion and all that.
 
@slogan71 I am not being judgmental, no stress! I just haven't seen a thread on sexuality/gender/sex with positive results, and they're usually shit-storms because people approach the subjects with bizarre mentalities. I am not asserting I am *right* by any means, but we must always establish firm definitions and agree upon them to proceed with such sticky topics.

My principle issue with this topic is probably people insinuating there is something "wrong", "cross-wiring", "imbalances" - this is a load of shit. Such implications aim to pathologize identities. Sure, there's a considerable amount of evidence supporting sexuality (esp. male) as genetic, but why imply abnormalities?

Here's an abstract from a very solid publication for anyone interested in the science:

(1) Sanders AR, Martin ER, Beecham GW, Guo S, Dawood K, Rieger G, et al. Genome-wide scan demonstrates significant linkage for male sexual orientation. Psychol.Med. 2015;45(7):1379-1388

Background Findings from family and twin studies support a genetic contribution to the development of sexual orientation in men. However, previous studies have yielded conflicting evidence for linkage to chromosome Xq28. Method We conducted a genome-wide linkage scan on 409 independent pairs of homosexual brothers (908 analyzed individuals in 384 families), by far the largest study of its kind to date. Results We identified two regions of linkage: the pericentromeric region on chromosome 8 (maximum two-point LOD = 4.08, maximum multipoint LOD = 2.59), which overlaps with the second strongest region from a previous separate linkage scan of 155 brother pairs; and Xq28 (maximum two-point LOD = 2.99, maximum multipoint LOD = 2.76), which was also implicated in prior research. Conclusions Results, especially in the context of past studies, support the existence of genes on pericentromeric chromosome 8 and chromosome Xq28 influencing development of male sexual orientation.
Which is essentially confirming males don't have a god damn choice. Women are up in the air, because of course everyone is okay with lesbianism. Why fund studies? :wacky:
 
OK let's be fair @brokenandtwisted I did state in the opening that we shouldn't approach this subject from "right or wrong;holy or unholy." That is not what this discussion is about.
I am.not saying every case is the same. However the science exists to prove there are chemical, environmental (mother to fetus) and chromasomal disorders that cause anything from mutates to absent sexual organs. There are cases of males developing female characteristics (gynomastea) and of females developing male characteristics.
There are several hormone secreting organs that can cause too much estrogen in males, testosterone in females or no sex hormones to be secreted when they malfunction.
Could an extreme case cause confusion in a child about their sexual identity?
I kinda think if I was a 12 year old boy who developed boobs, confusion would ensue.
Thank God these types of disorders are rare but they are still possible.
There are also documented cases of parents who invent or exaggerate situations to gain attention, donations etc.
If we are to have an open dialogue about this subject, we cannot discount opinions or theories that are possible; however unlikely they may be. :)
 
Yes, there is considerable science supporting chromosomal disorder in reproductive development. I should clarify - I was referring to sexuality. And there is absolutely zero evidence indicating homosexuality is an abnormality or a disorder. Implying such is 100% social opinion. We need to distance social ideologies from biology. It is dangerously unethical to label something 'disordered' when nothing indicates disorder. So - my point - we need to find evidence supporting trans- anything. If we have found a "gay gene" (gross oversimplification, but for the sake of conversation let's call it that), surely there is one for trans-people. But this mentality also insinuates identity can be categorized. To err on the side of caution, perhaps it's best to just say fuck it and not bother with the labels. :nana:
 
Of course there should be studies. I think if we have the ability to be informed we should.
No one has come out and said it is wrong or that being homosexual is a disorder. I would be the first to inform them that as of 1973 homosexuality is no longer classified as a mental disorder. As for right or wrong its not that kind of thread.
It is fascinating you have to admit my learned friend to hear opinions and theories. It opens up a whole new insight into human behavior.
 
This is the original post from mats hari's thread about transgender children.
Brings up an interesting question.
Even if a child is old enough to decide they are transgender, is accepted by their family and embraces a new normal; should they be afforded the opportunity to use medication and surgical means to permanently alter their development? Shouldn't any permanent changes wait until adulthood?

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Mata Hari
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Camille is six. Today she is wearing a dress patterned with strawberries and a pink zip-up sweatshirt with Dance printed across the front in sparkly sequins. Her fingernails are painted alternately pink and blue. She likes playing with Barbies. Her favourite Disney heroines are Elsa from Frozen and Ariel from The Little Mermaid.

Camille was born a boy. For the first few years of her life, she was known by her parents as Sebastian. When you ask Camille if she can remember being physically male, she nods her head. “Everyone was calling me Sebastian, but I was a girl,” she says, placing all the emphasis on the word. “I used to have girl pyjamas with Minnie Mouse on them and I used to sleep in them.”

Camille is one of a growing number of children who experience gender dysphoria – the belief that there is a mismatch between their biological sex and their gender identity. It is estimated that between 2% and 5% of the population experience some form of this, although statistical analysis is patchy.
More at Link:
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/05/transgender-kids-children-change-sex-families

This subject is one I have difficulty with. One of my neighbors has a transgender 1st grader and while she appears happy, I wonder if they were almost "too supportive" of their son wanting to dress like a girl and change his name to a girl name. I mean, do you guys really think at 4, 5, 6yrs old a kid really has the capacity to fully understand what is going on?

What if their son decides he wants to go back to being a boy in like 5 yrs? In reading this article and a couple others it is generally accepted to start hormones on these kids when they are still teens. Won't that just fuck them up even more?
 
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