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In the referenced article "Ashford said during the hearing that psychologists indicated the girl could make progress in expressing emotion and feeling empathy..."

Don't you have to feel something to be able to express it? And is empathy really something you learn or is it innate?

If she is truly a psychopath, all they can teach her is to fake the emotion and empathy. Not sure I agree that would be progress......
 
Empathy is innate. We know this because experiments on very young babies show that they care about others and understand that it's better to help others. For example, a toddler is more likely than not to help an adult who appears to be having trouble with something.

Even younger than that, babies understand what it means to help someone. If shown a video of cartoon shapes, one "helpful" and the other either indifferent or "hindering", they will pay more attention to blocks shaped like the "helpful" character. (The method of seeing what babies pay attention to is a way of figuring out what they are most interested in when they are still too young to reach for things.) This implies that babies know that "helpful" people are desirable to interact with.

Only when they're old enough to understand things like, "This person needs help," will they actively start helping. That happens around 18 months to 2 years, which not so coincidentally is around the time the baby starts to understand the concept of "Me", as confirmed by the fact that they recognize that the baby in the mirror as themselves (interacting by examining themselves rather than trying to socialize with the "baby in the mirror").

Animals also show empathy, so it's a trait present from before we were human. A monkey given the opportunity to pull a lever which will shock another monkey but also give it food, will starve itself rather than pull the lever. Rats, given the choice, will pick a lever that feeds them and another rat, rather than one that feeds just them. They can also be taught to do things with "Helping another rat" as a reward. And rats, unlike monkeys, are not very social animals.

It's clear that empathy is not a culturally-learned behavior; it's an instinct that humans possess naturally, and more strongly than most animals because we are sociocultural animals rather than solitary hunters. It's certainly culturally honed and adapted; for example, it's the cultural idea of "We give food to the hungry" that allows a person to donate to a food pantry and be somewhat assured that their donation will go to a neighbor who needs food, who they will probably never meet. But at a very basic level, these are human instincts: The desire to help others; the distress one feels when seeing others in distress; and the satisfaction you get when you successfully help someone.
 
http://www.fox4news.com/story/29135322/teen-gets-40-years-for-drowning-infant

DALLAS -
A Dallas teenager was sentenced to 40 years in prison for drowning the baby her mother had been caring for.

The unnamed juvenile gave up her right to a trial and admitted killing 2-month-old Justice Hull in January. She was 14 years old at the time.

She told a 911 dispatch officer, “What, it ain't nothing. All I did was drown the baby.”

She later told police she picked the sleeping child up and pushed her head into the water. It was something she had been thinking about doing and decided the day before to go ahead with it.

When further questioned, the teen told investigators she was upset with her mother for trying to adopt Hull.
[....]
A Child Protective Services report said the woman (Justice's mother) requested help from the state because she worked and her 19-year-old son, who had been watching the baby for short periods of time, was returning to school. The request was denied twice.

On the day Hull was killed, she was home with the woman's two teenage daughters.

The defense attorney argued the teen needs mental help.

She could have received probation, but the judge decided on the maximum sentence.

She was not tried as an adult and will be eligible for parole once she turns 19.
 
The defense attorney argued the teen needs mental help.
I absolutely agree but I also agree that she needs some punishment too.

As harsh as 40 years sound, the last sentence says that since she wasn't tried as an adult she hits parole eligibility once she turns 19 so 40 is the maximum she'll serve she could easily be out much sooner.
 
She is bad now ...
She will be bad then ...
I have no faith in humanity


Keep your faith please Brenni. I honestly think most are good, but some, like her....not worth our time.

Not worth rehabilitating, just drown her. Some chains and a couple of cement blocks will ensure that she never "just drowns the baby" again. :devil:
 
Keep your faith please Brenni. I honestly think most are good, but some, like her....not worth our time.

Not worth rehabilitating, just drown her. Some chains and a couple of cement blocks will ensure that she never "just drowns the baby" again. :devil:
Ok :) I will try
...and I agree .. kill the bitch .
 
At 14 I adored all babies and definitely knew from an early age right and wrong. WTF
At fourteen you would have been hard pressed to get that baby OUT of my arms. I would have been over the moon if my Mom had wanted to adopt a baby when I was fourteen. This bitch has no soul.[/QU
 
Nuh-uh; I remember being fourteen and I would've known very well that hurting a child is wrong. I would've known that at four. No excuses on the basis of age.

Give her a fair trial, but don't excuse her for being fourteen. Fourteen is plenty old enough to know right from wrong, and this was as wrong as it gets.



Hey just wanted to say I had disagree marked on this .. But I NEVER purposely marked that.. I'm assuming I did it on accident at some point or another and just happen to be rereading this tonight and came across your comments with the big RED X and after reading it thought to myself who would disagree with you... so curiosity made me check the list and there was my name.. Lol..anyway I wanted to apologize..and I also corrected it to agree..<3
 
That's completely misleading to begin a news article: "A Dallas teenager was sentenced to 40 years in prison for drowning the baby her mother had been caring for" and then to end it with oh, but actually she's just going to juvie and she'll be eligible to be released in five years.
And sure, she'll walk when she's 19 because the only education" she'll get locked up is that which she wants to get: How To Get Away With Murder 101. There'll be plenty of her kind in there teaching her how to fake empathy and remorse, and by the time she's up for release, she'll be so good at it that it'll be like taking candy from a baby (or drowning one, if you're her.)

I think normal people are born with empathy, absolutely. When my twins were just infants, I mean 8 months old or so, when one was in distress, the other would become alarmed and look for me or my husband to make sure we were on it, and the concerned one would pat the other on the back as though to comfort her.... there was no question that when one needed help, the other had a "built in" something that just knew that helping was the right thing to do. But then, they were normal kids, not some self-entitled asshat who had the audacity to say of her mother, "She should've listened." When I read that I just wanted to slap her shitless. No, evil one, YOU should've listened... to any shred of a conscience you may have, or at least to some common sense that takes over when most people get a horrible notion like that in their minds.
She offered to take care of that baby the night before, and even so, still she slept soundly... knowing that she was going to take an innocent life in the morning.... the people she was going to destroy in the process.... knowing that a young mother would, because of her actions, learn that her daughter was dead. She KNEW this and couldn't conjure a single fuck to give!
I don't think empathy can be taught and in her case, I don't really care. I hope that vile bitch Karma takes her out before she's free to harm anyone else. I don't care how old she is, her young age only makes it more frightening: a body can do a lot of damage when they've already begun murdering at age 14.
That baby wasn't even crying, ffs, it was asleep! So many of the stories here have in common "Well, the baby wouldn't stop crying so I threw it against the wall" or some other ridiculous excuse (the logic that harming a crying baby will soothe it and make the crying stop is so ludicrous, yet it's in so many of these stories.) But not in this one. All this one did was sleep quietly, and only cried when she was taken from her bed and began the process of being murdered.
Parole in 5 years my ass. Insufferable cunt.
 
I do hate it that people try to get off the hook for crimes because they have a mental illness and they think that this means they couldn't help it. That's not true; mental illness doesn't make you commit crimes. Mentally ill people can be just as hateful as mentally-healthy people and sometimes their crimes look more bizzare because their throughts aren't as clear. But statistically, mental illness has little to no effect on crime. Age and gender are much better predictors.

That said... I hate it that people who are judged to be guilty of crimes don't generally get decent mental health help. Committing a crime and being imprisoned are stressful, and are likely to worsen mental health issues. Even if their mental illness didn't make them do it and they're not going to go to a mental hospital for treatment, these people--who are guilty but mentally ill--need mental health care in prison.

If they had broken their leg while committing a crime, we'd treat the broken leg. If they'd gotten shot and needed the hole patched up, we'd do that. It's just basic human decency. But if someone's gone into a depressive episode after committing a crime, we don't bother to help them, because it's not as visible as a broken leg or a bullet hole. That's just cruel and unusual, IMO. Get them a shrink, get them meds, whatever; just treat them. Forcing prisoners--even murderers--to suffer through untreated mental illness is not something a civilized society should do.
 
First... I did not read a single comment because I dont want to be swayed.

Ok here we go. I assume the 14 year old was placed with the family and probably had issues of her own. So WHY LEAVE her in charge of a baby??? I have an almost 18 year old. She will be 18 in March. A "good kid" ROTC, straight A's works at a movie theater, etc" guess how man diapers she has changed? Zero.. ZERO!! It is not her job!!

Kids are stupid and wreckless and irritating and irresponsible and these are my actual bio kids who have no "past" so arrest mom already and move on. Drops mic, Kat out.
[doublepost=1454663470,1454663184][/doublepost]Ok... Read the thread... Burn that 14 year old. Planned on killing her the night before, just an extra kid, ate cereal after? That's just a cold hearted sociopath right there!!!
 
She is bad now ...
She will be bad then ...
I have no faith in humanity :shrug:
Meh, we're actually not suppose to put our faith in humanity & furthermore, there's a curse on those who do. My source of course is the Bible (3 scriptures that speak of it); some might disagree but it's rather interesting, considering the disappointment & failure that is sure to follow, when one puts faith in fellow man.
 
@gatekeeper said
but it's a shame her twin sister didn't rat her out. :(

I don't think the twin sister knew.
I understood it as; they were taking turns caring for the baby in the morning before school. It was actually the other twins morning but saidsaid

" I'll take care if the baby in the morning."
And she did. I don't think the other twin knew *taking care* meant killing.
 
It's more likely that she'll get stuck by lightening when she gets out than kill again.

We're so quick to determine a person not worthy of rehabilitation, but the reality of the situation is that rehabilitation appears to work on female juvenile murderers better than any other demographic in all of crime.

And that's fantastic, since they pretty much all get released.

Support the idea of rehabilitation, please. There is no alternative for juvenile offenders, so we may as well give it our best shot.
 
It's more likely that she'll get stuck by lightening when she gets out than kill again.

We're so quick to determine a person not worthy of rehabilitation, but the reality of the situation is that rehabilitation appears to work on female juvenile murderers better than any other demographic in all of crime.

And that's fantastic, since they pretty much all get released.

Support the idea of rehabilitation, please. There is no alternative for juvenile offenders, so we may as well give it our best shot.
They ALL get released to BREED- PLEASE believe in
REHABILITATION
DEATH PENALTY & THE KILL SHOT
 
@gatekeeper said


I don't think the twin sister knew.
I understood it as; they were taking turns caring for the baby in the morning before school. It was actually the other twins morning but saidsaid

" I'll take care if the baby in the morning."
And she did. I don't think the other twin knew *taking care* meant killing.

I reread it, and in retrospect, in that context, it does sound like a more logical/normal progression, doesn't it? I think that's what I wasn't originally getting, the part about her not realizing she'd actually kill the baby. But, I honestly do believe she was giving off some serious jealousy/frustration vibes before she did it both by the way the article reads and IRL, esp. being a twin. It is more likely though that no one believed she would go to that length to get her own way let alone her own sister. As a society, we're still not used to picking up on psychopathies and a true lack of empathy at such early ages (if she is truly disturbed). With the brain not being fully formed yet, misdiagnosis is still way too precarious at that age.

Posting at the same time @Athena , lol.
 
It's more likely that she'll get stuck by lightening when she gets out than kill again.

We're so quick to determine a person not worthy of rehabilitation, but the reality of the situation is that rehabilitation appears to work on female juvenile murderers better than any other demographic in all of crime.

And that's fantastic, since they pretty much all get released.

Support the idea of rehabilitation, please. There is no alternative for juvenile offenders, so we may as well give it our best shot.
I agree with this based on my real life experiences.
At the shelter I worked at we had many youth (young adults) bussed over to train and work at our facility.
It was a program to ready them for release. These "kids" were so polite and willing. Everyone of them seemed like normal young adults getting a start in life. All of them had committed murder.
Over the years our director stayed in contact with several of them and would share letters and photos. Like they were our kids. And in a way, they were our kids. Some of them never experienced what it felt like to be liked/loved by family. For most of them, they ended up sucked into thug life just to belong.
Working at the shelter gave them the only opportunity ever in their life to experience what it felt like *to do good, do the right thing* and to be told at the end of the day, before they got on the bus, """thank you, you did great today, see you tomorrow"""
Some of them had never heard a kind word in their life. They come from homes just like the ones we read about here. Babies left home alone, babies being beat on by moms DOM.
Its easy to say real quick *kill it, it can't be fixed* I know I have said it plenty of times. Its a knee jerk and an easy thing to say. But in reality, we don't give children the DP what we need is more programs like the one that allowed those kids to come from CYA and get some work experience and hear at the end of the day "thank you, you did a good job today, see you tomorrow"

Edit
Last I heard, the funding for that program was cut. Some time in the late 90's or early 2000's
 
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Random thought but if you have an identical twin sister, and you are a sociopath... Then is she too? Is that how it works? Is it like bad coding?
 
Excellent post @Keepalowprofile . <3 I love hearing that. Same thing here with outpatient psych care. Even in juvy, it was rare to find a kid who wouldn't respond to good, decent treatment and good, healthy adult role modeling. We did have several kids in juvy over the years who were diagnosed psychotic and needed to be maintained/treated in secured psychiatric hospitals/facilities, but they were rare in the overall population over the years.

A lot of these kids were just feral doing whatever they could to survive, often trying to keep their younger sibs alive, too, b/c they didn't know anything else and have zero resources. Re: murder, I can only think of three boys, two girls off the top of my head in nearly a decade of jail housing overflow who I agree were legitimately psychotic as teens. Have no idea what happened to them after their juv. jail sentences were up, but I'm another whose always said (usually during my screaming about continued, deep budget cuts in MH), kids are maleable. With the right treatment, they not only survive in society, they can thrive.
 
I fear this girl will be released at 19, she will breed, and re-appear on DD because she murdered her child, or a step child.
 
Random thought but if you have an identical twin sister, and you are a sociopath... Then is she too? Is that how it works? Is it like bad coding?
Yeah, it's bad coding, but it's not that simple. The human brain isn't all about DNA; it develops in a very flexible way. Both prenatally and after you're born, your brain requires sensory input and information, interaction with the environment, to develop. As a baby's brain makes connections between neurons, if a connection is used, it's strengthened; if not, it fades. That means brain development is very environment-dependent and very much a chaotic system wherein small changes can snowball into very big differences.

What she and her identical twin have in common would be the basic hardware--the brain, the general specifications they're working with. But after conception, their environments would have started to differ ever so slightly. Maybe one baby had a placenta better connected than the other. Maybe one baby happened to be asleep and the other awake when they both got sensory input to help them do some of that early brain wiring. As time went on, they became very different from each other, developing different personalities.

Identical twins will have more similar personalities to each other than they do to fraternal twins or to same-age classmates, and personality does have a lot to do with your genes. But the randomness of brain development ensures that even identical twins will be unique individuals. Her twin sister probably does have an increased risk of becoming a sociopath--but it's nowhere near guaranteed. And, since brain development doesn't finish until about age 30 (and learning takes place life-long), she's quite young enough to look at the murder, say to herself, "I don't want to be like that," and deliberately cultivate altruistic traits.
 
@Satanica @Nell @Muriel Schwenck
A Dallas judge ruled Friday that a young woman who intentionally drowned a baby girl at age 14 should be paroled and freed into society rather than serving the remainder of her 40-year sentence in prison.

Now 18, she will spend the next 36 years on parole for the capital murder of 2-month-old Justice Hull, a child the teen's mother intended to adopt but the teen considered an "extra" burden.

The teen didn't testify during the hearing. She spoke only to answer questions from state District Judge Cheryl Lee Shannon, saying "yes, ma'am" and "no, ma'am."

The Dallas Morning News is not naming the young woman because she was tried in juvenile court.

Her attorney sat between the young woman and her mother. For much of the testimony, the daughter looked down as witnesses talked about her past and how she was a "moderate risk" for future violence.

Before her release, the 18-year-old will head back to a juvenile lockup while the terms of her parole are decided, including how often she will report to a parole officer.

Shannon followed the Texas Department of Juvenile Justice's recommendation to parole the teen. Some with the juvenile justice department believed she should go to adult prison, as did the Dallas County district attorney's office.
Shannon, a longtime juvenile court judge, cited a psychological report that said the young woman felt guilt, remorse and shame about the baby's 2015 murder. The report also said the teen believed she had no chance at being released. Shannon was the judge who originally sentenced the teen after deciding she should remain in the juvenile system instead of being tried in adult court.
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/cou...killed-baby-age-14-set-free-sent-adult-prison
 
36 years on parole won't be so easy either. We'll see what happens. She will have had to have changed a LOT during her brief stay in jail.
 
Of course she shows remorse and/or guilt now... they pointed out that was an issue from the start. She learned that wasn't how she should act. I almost feel like she played the system. Just a thought.
 
Of course she shows remorse and/or guilt now... they pointed out that was an issue from the start. She learned that wasn't how she should act. I almost feel like she played the system. Just a thought.

Or she was young, did something horrible on impulse, and is genuinely sorry now that she is more mature. We don't have enough information to know one way or the other. I hope for the sake of society that it is the latter, since they are releasing her.
 
First... I did not read a single comment because I dont want to be swayed.

Ok here we go. I assume the 14 year old was placed with the family and probably had issues of her own. So WHY LEAVE her in charge of a baby??? I have an almost 18 year old. She will be 18 in March. A "good kid" ROTC, straight A's works at a movie theater, etc" guess how man diapers she has changed? Zero.. ZERO!! It is not her job!!

Kids are stupid and wreckless and irritating and irresponsible and these are my actual bio kids who have no "past" so arrest mom already and move on. Drops mic, Kat out.
[doublepost=1454663470,1454663184][/doublepost]Ok... Read the thread... Burn that 14 year old. Planned on killing her the night before, just an extra kid, ate cereal after? That's just a cold hearted sociopath right there!!!
Are you freakin kidding me?!?!?! This is exactly why prosecutors fight to have juveniles tried as adults. I’m sorry, but not only did this girl kill an innocent baby-she PLANNED it! It was like an FU to her mother-“tell her she should’ve listened.” It wasn’t even like she was frustrated with the baby crying and just snapped (still not ok but less psychopathic). The baby was asleep!!! Even my demon child—who cried non stop for 3 months when he was awake-could bring me to tears with how angelic he looked sleeping. And yes 30 plus years probation sounds stern until you realize that’s only as good as the people running it. Jaycee Dugar’s Kidnapper and torturer was on probation all the while he had her. 14 or or whatever-that girl is evil and we will be hearing about her again sooner than later.
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Or she was young, did something horrible on impulse, and is genuinely sorry now that she is more mature. We don't have enough information to know one way or the other. I hope for the sake of society that it is the latter, since they are releasing her.
She did NOT do it in impulse as explained in the article. She planned it the night before and even told her sister that she would be responsible for her the hour bf they went to school. She planned it, executed it, and literally had no remorse whatsoever. Those are not moves of an impulsive teenager, those are the moves of a psychopath! At the very least I hope they water board her. We DO know if you’d have actually read the original article.
 
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