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So we shouldn't judge this cowardly fuck for his past? At what point does it count as his past? Yesterday? Last week? Last year? Ohhhh... how about August of 2014?

"Mitchell Dorn was taken into custody on 9/27/2014 in Volusia County, Florida and charged with robbery by sudden snatching, resist arrest with violence, and grand theft."

Damn... I guess he just didn't make the cut. This asshole is a habitual coward and thief. I stand by my original assertion that this shit-stain cannot/will not be rehabilitated.
 
Ok, I read this story earlier from a link on FB and on the comments on the fb news site posting, the MOTHER of this child was posting on there defending the offender saying he never hurt her child, he loves him like a son and DCFS had closed the case against them. Then went on the usual rant that it's nobodies business and everyone needs to butt out and their kids are fine. I'll try to find the link, she's a real gem.

After reading your post I questioned my first opinion of him being a sob... We all no their are people in this world who exaggerate EVERTHING.. So I went back and re read the article and all though I am wondering why the day care did not stop him, seeing supposedly he dragged the boy out of there and why the people who witnessed it and called the cops, never mentioned the mom was there also.... These are some important questions that I would need to know before giving my complete opinion on him... But unfortunately for him the lil boy did have bruises and he has a pretty bad criminal back ground which means I would want the boy to be put with another foster or family member until I finished investigating this man.. Jmo
 
I was discussing this with the spouse last night after the chat we had about spanking in shout. The definition of "spanking" varies both colloquially and culturally. Legality surrounding it varies by jurisdiction. A football player whips his son with a switch so hard it draws blood, and this practice is rabidly defended by many. A mom sends her child to school wearing a shirt that brags of "whoopins", only for substantial bruising to be found on the child. This man felt comfortable doing this in public. Probably some of that brilliant, "I was raised like that and I turned out okay," logic.

The U.S. government has taken the position that no amount of alcohol is safe while pregnant, not because it is a scientific stance to take, but because too many bitches can't seem to grasp the concept of "light" drinking, thinking a six-pack a night must be it if they've given up the liquor...

I'm beginning to believe it is time to criminalize hitting children across the board. Considering there are numerous studies finding that regular spankings (on up) increase the likelihood of aggression and impulsiveness, there's no sound argument for keeping the practice around.

I reserve the right to spank my children in an appropriate manner.
 
I was a butt-swatter from way back (only w/my own two, never w/my gran-dtr or anyone else's kid(s), ever). As toddlers, those thickly-diapered, little butts got a couple of swats when they needed it, and I mean swats, not slapping their butts hard enough to throw them off balance. I doubt they even felt anything. It was more for shock value than anything else. Wasn't out of anger or frustration with me, just a teaching tool based on mammal moms who teach their young by "pain compliance" which was actually supported by some psychologists back in the day in response to Dr. Spock's "Happy Chair" parenting methodology which later became what we now know as "Time Out." When used correctly and sparingly per SANE parental judgment, I still believe in it as a tool in the teaching arsenal with kids who respond well to it via modifying their behavior. I used both spanking and time out on both kids depending on the situation and they both worked equally well (well, with one anyway).

When they got older, as a child of a...let's just say a pretty egregious childhood, I made a spanking rule for myself of no more than three pops on the ass, and never when I'm angry (I'm feeling deja vu-y here). The number of pops on the ass/spankings was directly proportional to the infraction/offense. I rarely ever had to spank my dtr., and I gave up on spanking my son at three because (1) he wasn't making the connection between laying a hand across his butt and the reason why I was doing it no matter how many times I explained it, and (2) it didn't work or change anything. Of course, we found out three yrs. later autistic kids/Aspy's often have a neurally-based decreased sensation to pain, and, because they're concretized thinkers, he had ZERO idea his behavior was even remotely connected to the fact I'd "hit" him. I was floored when at 3 y.o. he looked me in the eye, completely confused and dumbfounded and asked me why "I'd hit him!" :jawdrop:o_O:confused::( So much for pain compliance with that one.

Between all the kids who lie about their parents physically "abusing" them when they're pissed/don't get their way and they've never raised a hand to them, the kids whose parents have used spanking appropriately whose kids love to tell all their friends their parents "beat them, too" so they'll fit in with the cutters, the emos and truly abused kids, and the parents who can still be helped/taught by court-ordered, mandatory parenting classes, therapy and Early and general Childhood Behavior and Development classes, I can't agree Big Bro needs anymore invasive maneuvering to get into our private lives than we already have to tolerate.

Out of one of the horses' mouths, infant, child and teen child abuse is a despicable, life-mangling, and too often a deadly thing, but to criminalize what one person calls a normal swat/spanking that doesn't bruise or injure the child in any way when another will surely call it "Child Abuse, Child Endangerment, Battery Against a Child," etc., isn't the right solution/deterrent, IMO. To me, I don't think a lifelong rap sheet for child abuse and taking a good parent away from their child and/or vice versa should be based on "eye witness testimony" over a spanking anymore than DP cases should be decided on them. But, believe me, I understand the sentiment from non-spankers and sane, appropriate spankers alike.
 
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I reserve the right to spank my children in an appropriate manner.
I agree. While I don't believe that ever bad behavior warrants a spanking, in fact I find that to be overkill, I reserve the right to spank for certain awful behaviors. With that said I have not felt the "need" to spank any of my boys in years but they are very aware that if they do something that wrong then I just might.
 
I'm not of the opinion that spanking, when performed appropriately, is child abuse or anything. I just find it entirely unnecessary. And, the case can be made that its legality most certainly contributes to what I like to call "scope-creep".

Some studies have found that a majority of child abuse cases arise in situations where the abuser intended to discipline the child, and two-thirds of abusive parents admit that their abuse began as an attempt to discipline their child (Gershoff & Bitensky, 2007).
- Source

If people left spanking as spanking should be, a rarely used smack or two on the butt with an open hand, I wouldn't be making the case for criminalization (although I still don't care for the practice). But, obviously, there are parents out there who believe hitting a kid is hitting a kid is hitting a kid. And, really, it's difficult to debunk that logic. Because, yeah, it seems kind of silly to limit the hit to a specific part of the body. If you can slap them on the butt, you can slap them across the face. If you can slap, you can really do anything that doesn't leave a wound. And if you can slap with a hand, why not use an object? I could go on, but my point is, it leaves a lot of room for interpretation. My little sister used to "flick" all the time before I shamed her out of the practice. Flick. Seriously?

Beyond that, I'm always looking for logical consistency in social policy. Children are the only people left in our society we can legally hit for simply misbehaving ("left" because, there was a time men were defending their "right" to hit their wives for the same corrective reasons). We can't use physical violence as discipline against other adults, or even in a prison setting. That sort of bothers me. If it were a superior form of discipline, I could at least understand the exception. But it's not. It's still a practice for no other reason than it's always been a practice. For shits and giggles, I just googled "the case for spanking," and there was none. The first result came from the American Psychological Association, titled "The case against spanking". All of the results that came back made the case against spanking.

Yes, a parent has the right to spank (for now, in most places), and so long as it's rarely used, it's not particularly harmful. But I really don't care for the, "It's my right," argument. Yep... so is feeding your kid nothing but junk food so they're 100lbs by the age of 8, or failing to vaccinate. And science has determined that parents who spank frequently have a number of long-term, ill effects on their children, so I don't think I'm making exaggerated comparisons here.
 
Considering there are numerous studies finding that regular spankings (on up) increase the likelihood of aggression and impulsiveness, there's no sound argument for keeping the practice around.

That kind of logic is skewed and flawed. Spanking (not beating) has always been part of human history, it cannot be said with 100% certainty that it causes increased aggression or impulsiveness. Using that logic aggression and impulsiveness would increase with every generation exposed to spanking. Instead we see less spanking and less forced used when giving a spanking then ever before.

Then there's the other side of the fence, the people who spare the rod and spoil the child. There's been "proven" correlations that these children do not learn respect and they don't learn to take responsibilities for their actions.

Personally I don't believe either camp is right. Spanking could be a useful tool if used correctly. That being said, spanking shouldn't be done on very small children who are to small to understand why they got one. It shouldn't be done daily or as a way to vent anger. It shouldn't be the only form of punishment or reinforcement.

Most grown adults have been spanked and they don't turn out to be impulsive asshats who beat their children. The people who beat children have anger issues that go a lot deeper then being spanked when they were little.

Aggression is very hard for them to do studies on since they can only use humans in a limited way, and those studies must use twins or other multiples for effective statistics. Most aggression studies are done on animals, not humans.

There was a new study done recently on genetic vs environment causing childhood aggression. While most studies agree environment can have an effect on aggression, it alone doesn't make a child aggressive and only plays a small part in how they turn out. It's been shown over and over that aggression is heritable.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/271470.php

This isn't a unique finding by one country alone. They did a large scale one here in Holland and found environment played only a small contribution. (it was done before spanking was banned)

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1025782918793
 
And while all of the theories on spanking are thought provoking, this always kept me from even going there:

A friend of my mom, who was in no way abusive, went to swat her four year old on the behind. He squirmed, she missed and by complete chance hit him just wrong. He had to be hospitalized with some sort of kidney lesion.

chances are tiny... But I remember how absolutely shitty that woman felt. I was very young at the time, but that was that. Impression formed.
 
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And while all of the theories on spanking are thought provoking, this always kept me from even going there:

A friend of my mom, who was in no way abusive, went to swat her four year old on the behind. He squirmed, she missed and by complete chance hit him just wrong. He had to be hospitalized with some sort of kidney lesion.

chances are tiny... But I remember how absolutely shitty that womab felt. I was very young at the time, but that was that. Impression formed.
I'm afraid your mom's friend hit him way harder than a swat or something else happened. Kidneys are covered in a thick layer of fat to protect them. It takes high force trauma to injure them.
 
@Athena, we may not use spanking as a formal punishment for adults, but we have decided much worse methods for them.

Sensory deprivation comes to mind immediately.

I spank my children when there has been a severe infraction. No more than three swats on the butt. It is highly effective. I have tried a vast array of punishments with my children, and few get the message across as effective as a swift swat on the butt.
If you are doing it hard enough to hurt your hand, then you're doing it too hard.

I appreciate @Sudonim's post here. Unchecked emotion and aggression is what causes beatings. Those people may perceive it as a form of punishment at first, but there should be something that 'clicks' when you realize what you are doing is causing undue suffering. That 'click' usually doesn't exist in abusers, which leads to a much deeper psychological issue.
 
That kind of logic is skewed and flawed. Spanking (not beating) has always been part of human history, it cannot be said with 100% certainty that it causes increased aggression or impulsiveness. Using that logic aggression and impulsiveness would increase with every generation exposed to spanking. Instead we see less spanking and less forced used when giving a spanking then ever before.

Not exactly. I'm a big fan of the behavioral genetics field, so I'm very aware of the role (or lack thereof) environment plays. I've on many occasions pointed out here the fact that the "cycle of violence" theory has been all but debunked by the study of behavioral genetics. That said, when factors are controlled for, testing the effects of spanking is a fairly straightforward study with reliable results. You're describing this as though it would be some cumulative effect in regard to aggression, but that's not quite how it would work. Well, that is how it would work if there weren't social safeguards in place to diffuse the increased aggression. Education and counseling both act to mitigate the effects of increased aggressiveness in children and adults, so spanking can lead to greater impulsiveness and aggression, but that effect can conceivably be undone as well, which is why it doesn't grow and grow and grow.

But, speaking of logic, it doesn't manifest more plainly than the assumption that, when physicality is used to control a child's behavior, that child is going to be more likely to use physicality to control the behavior of others. More likely, not guaranteed.

Most grown adults have been spanked and they don't turn out to be impulsive asshats who beat their children. The people who beat children have anger issues that go a lot deeper then being spanked when they were little.

No one is saying that the impact of spanking is so wildly disproportionate as this. I am simply saying, there is documented harm associated with the frequent use of spanking. There is no documented benefit associated with the use of spanking at any frequency. And the fact that it is legal does appear to contribute to scope-creep. You give parents an inch, they take a mile, so to speak. If you condone physical discipline in a household containing a parent who lacks self-control, it can (and does) snowball.

If you draw a line and say that hitting your child will no longer be tolerated in any capacity, sure, there will still be people who abuse their children, just as there are men who still abuse their wives. But I believe it will be less (this is a great article), because condoning physicality to begin with is the thing that starts some people down the path. Once upon a time, what we recognize today as domestic violence could be found in a far greater percentage of homes, because it was a perfectly legal and widely advocated method for controlling wayward wives. Perhaps that's what disturbs me the most. The arguments men used to make to justify hitting us, we are now making to justify hitting our children. And the studies clearly suggest that we're lying to ourselves when we fool ourselves into thinking the effects are less if we hit here instead of there, or at this age instead of that.

Can we just stop hitting people? :p

A friend of my mom, who was in no way abusive, went to swat her four year old on the behind. He squirmed, she missed and by complete chance hit him just wrong. He had to be hospitalized with some sort of kidney lesion.

Ugh, that's terrible.

Similarly, I got my sister to stop flicking her child fairly quickly, before her child turned 2. My sister saw flicking as less severe than a good ol' fashioned spanking, and she used it more often than she would spank as a result. I shamed her out of flicking by showing her over a period of time that it was not correcting the behavior it was intended to correct (and threatening to start flicking her, because I'm the older sister and totally would to make a point, lol).

Shortly after she gave it up... daughter was identified as autism spectrum. Crushing guilt on the part of my sister. She had been flicking her child for behaviors her child couldn't control like other kids. :(
 
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I'm afraid your mom's friend hit him way harder than a swat or something else happened. Kidneys are covered in a thick layer of fat to protect them. It takes high force trauma to injure them.
I was around her home/children a lot, I don't think she was habitually abusive or abusive. I think he moved on the downswing and she overcompensated, but I know the chances of something like that resulting from a "normal spanking" are pretty much nil. I've got an unreasonable fear of it anyway. I use timeouts, with pretty good results so far. No teenagers yet though, so we will see.
 
Typical Florida drug addicted Ass*ole whose woman lets him beat her and her child all for the golden penis of the year while she defends him against the world because you know he is a great man who the world has condemned using his past 20+ arrests and mistakes even though his transgressions were recent. Tsk tsk.
 
@Athena, we may not use spanking as a formal punishment for adults, but we have decided much worse methods for them.

Sensory deprivation comes to mind immediately.

Isn't that some shit? We can stick a person in a dark box for extended period of time, but we can't hit them. I'm being glib, but 31 nations have banned corporal punishment. Only about 7 still authorize it at the judicial level, and nearly half of those reserve it exclusively for men. But they're all third-world, in either Indonesia, Africa or the Caribbean.

I spank my children when there has been a severe infraction. No more than three swats on the butt. It is highly effective. I have tried a vast array of punishments with my children, and few get the message across as effective as a swift swat on the butt.
If you are doing it hard enough to hurt your hand, then you're doing it too hard.

Oh, its short-term effectiveness is undeniable. Few methods of punishment work as quickly to dissuade a certain behavior. But should that be the only standard by which we evaluate methods of punishment? You're using spanking in the only capacity it should be used. Obviously, I'm not trying to suggest you're fucking up your children. Hell, my kid's four. I haven't even seen "severe infraction" yet. But how many parents are using corporal punishment under these ideal circumstances? Many things in this country have been criminalized because, although some use it correctly, many more don't.

I appreciate @Sudonim's post here. Unchecked emotion and aggression is what causes beatings. Those people may perceive it as a form of punishment at first, but there should be something that 'clicks' when you realize what you are doing is causing undue suffering. That 'click' usually doesn't exist in abusers, which leads to a much deeper psychological issue.

Agreed. But if corporal punishment was illegal across the board, many individuals would never have to worry about that "click", because they'd be using a non-physical method of discipline to begin with. And I do realize that non-physical discipline can be abused as well. But in my experience with the site, beaten children outnumber children who've been forced to stand in time out for too long pretty substantially.
 
Isn't that some shit? We can stick a person in a dark box for extended period of time, but we can't hit them. I'm being glib, but 31 nations have banned corporal punishment. Only about 7 still authorize it at the judicial level, and nearly half of those reserve it exclusively for men. But they're all third-world, in either Indonesia, Africa or the Caribbean.



Oh, its short-term effectiveness is undeniable. Few methods of punishment work as quickly to dissuade a certain behavior. But should that be the only standard by which we evaluate methods of punishment? You're using spanking in the only capacity it should be used. Obviously, I'm not trying to suggest you're fucking up your children. Hell, my kid's four. I haven't even seen "severe infraction" yet. But how many parents are using corporal punishment under these ideal circumstances? Many things in this country have been criminalized because, although some use it correctly, many more don't.



Agreed. But if corporal punishment was illegal across the board, many individuals would never have to worry about that "click", because they'd be using a non-physical method of discipline to begin with. And I do realize that non-physical discipline can be abused as well. But in my experience with the site, beaten children outnumber children who've been forced to stand in time out for too long pretty substantially.

Corporal punishment in the formative years is something that makes me think. While there are many people that were spanked and "turned out just fine," how well does a child understand physical aggression? If they don't understand it, but they respond to it short term.. Will that be their go to when something/someone doesn't behave the way they want them to? At what point are you modeling aggressive/violent behavior as the norm your impressionable mini-me?

I think the spanking question is a lot more than the black and white of "using it right."
 
I would bring him home to mommy, in a box. I am 4' 8 and I have stepped in too. Yeah, I got choked and put through a window but the baby was fine and the bastard got locked up (and lost his parental rights, too) so I don't regret stepping in. I would do it again, no hesitations and no regrets. If I see some worthless piece of shit beating a kid, IT IS MY BUSINESS. Babies can't fight back. I can and will. :rage::punch:
 
In all seriousness, I am not a pushover by any means when it comes to my sons. My kids actually do go to Tae Kwon Do and the other kids know me as the "mean Mom" because I don't let my kids run wild or act like jackasses in public. But, I also don't beat my kids and so far up to this point, they are well behaved people. My Dad was not one to spare the rod and I assure you, it did not make me a better child getting my ass kicked up the stairs or getting the belt. We got in trouble for anything and everything. It made me fearful and even now, resentful of him. I don't view him the same way I view my Mother. I respect her more because she was no pushover but she never beat any of us. I trusted my Mother the most (still do). When kids are hit by the person who is supposed to be protecting them, it can cause children to think -- what’s wrong with me?” Being beaten by your parent is not exactly a great self esteem builder.
 
I was raised in the days of yester lore when a good whoopin is what I needed, and deserved. Mother always spanked me, father once, but this only illuminates the now extinct two parent household, let alone original parents.
So a man or woman using a kids head as a speed bag is wrong, that's not a whoopin.
What we see here is a man for whatever reason, either like to abuse, or has reached his wits end and needs to learn how to discipline the kids.
I think the polar opposite is the kids that possibly have grew up and were never disciplined, and now have a problem with authority. They end up getting shot because they don't understand what, or why police ask them to do something.
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Oh what the fuck is that facial hair? WTF is that shit? And, is he wearing mascara?

Forget everything you know about Vampires, THEY EXIST!
 
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