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Abroad

Veteran Member
Katrice Lee vanished 31 years ago from a shop at a German military base where her Teesside father was stationed.

MPs have held a debate in the House of Commons about how the authorities handled the investigation.

Hartlepool Labour MP Iain Wright said the family had waited "far too long" and "action must be taken".

Katrice's mother Sharon Lee and sister Natasha, from Gosport, and her father Richard Lee, from Hartlepool, believe Katrice is still alive and she was abducted.

Katrice disappeared on her second birthday while her family were out shopping for party food.

Her mother left her at the checkout with her aunt for just a moment as she went to get crisps but when she returned Katrice had gone.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-20257397
 
Found this story interesting - especially the lack of specificity in most articles surrounding how the girl disappeared (she was with the aunt, how could she just be taken?)

In an article on a troll ripping the families hearts out repeatedly (pretending to be the missing daughter, then going postal after DNA confirms she's not) I found a better explanation:

She was at a military supermarket with her mum and aunt Wendy, who were picking up supplies for the little girl’s birthday. When Sharon got to the checkout she realised she had forgotten crisps and ran to get some, leaving Katrice with Wendy. But when she returned, her child was nowhere to be seen.

Sharon says: “I asked Wendy where Katrice was. She told me she had run after me, and at that point I didn’t panic, I ran back into the shop looking for her.

“I called her name, but couldn’t find her and when I couldn’t see her or hear crying, that’s when I panicked.”

The hours after that – the crying, the shouting for Katrice, the police officer’s reassurances – are a blur to Sharon.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/family-slam-imposter-troll-who-3520682

Also, an update on the earlier article just a few days ago shows the father's frustration (& an image of what she might look like today):

http://m.bbc.com/news/uk-england-tees-30922044
 
Hmmm.... Can't tell, but someone posted this a year ago. They claim to be a non native English speaker (explains grammar at times), but to have run into Katrice in the early nineties:

I met Katrice Lee in spring 1990 in an apartment not very far away from Mainz, Germany, and she talked to me. I have seen her again in early 1991 in my grandfathers basement in Mainz-Gonsenheim, Germany. Gonsenheim is a suburb of Mainz.

When I met Katrice Lee in 1990, she was held captive in the mentioned apartment, that was basically used as a child-brothel. The people responsible for this usually don't abduct children. They sometimes abduct children for a short period of time (couple of hours max.), rape them and give administer substances to them that cause a so called anterograde amnesia, so the children don't remember what has happened. I am going to tell you more about those people, and this is also the part of the information that obviously makes me sound so unbelievable.
I can only hope to find to find some people who are willing to think a little bit outside the box here.

But first I want to tell you, what Katrice Lee said to me. Have in mind, that I was 5 years old at that time.

When I was standing alone in the hallway of that appartment a girl was standing in an open door of a room to my left, that looked like a children's room. She was hesitating, checking the situation again and again. (I had seen her minutes before already and already had the feeling that she wants to talk to me.) She then approached me and said (in german): "Can you help me?" I nodded. She then said: "Can you tell my mommy I'm here." I turned my head towards the door, where I knew a woman (around 45 years old) was sitting behind, and was about to start calling her, when the girl interrupted me and said: "That's not my mommy."

This confused me, since I did not realize my own situation. I asked her, who her mother is and asked for her name. The girl: "Sharon. Her name is Sharon. - Tell her I am here. I am already here since a very long time. (The
way she pronounced the name was new to me. I knew I don't know a Sharon, but I realized that I came across that name before, because I was watching a lot of american TV series. But in TV the name was pronounced differently - the american way. But she pronounced it the british way.)

Because in that moment, and because of what had happened to me just before, I already had realized, that my mother is not a good person, and so I asked her: You really think it is a good idea to tell your mother? - - It looked like she was making up her mind about what I had said, paused for a couple of seconds and then said: "Then tell my sister! - Her name is Natasha, she must be looking for me. I know that! I know that she is looking for me." (She probably used the term 'searching' instead of 'looking'.) I told her, that I neither know a Sharon, nor a Natasha, and asked her for her last name. "Lee", she said. (That name rang a bell, because my father was wearing Lee jeans and
I had once asked him how the text on the logo of his pants is pronounced.)

And what is your name, I asked her.

„Katrice“, she said. -(pause)- "My name is Katrice Lee", she said.

Then there was suddenly another girl to my right, that was around the age of Katrice. That girl was smiling in a spiteful way and asked me, what the girl (Katrice) had just said to me. Because the older woman I mentioned before had given me tea, that contained a substance, that had made me very dizzy and sleepy, and because I was just a little boy, I told that girl, what I had been told. That girl then turned her head towards Katrice, said, "I'm gonna tell that", and left. Katrice then looked me straight in the face and asked, whether I was going to do what she asked me for. I promised her, that I would, but I did not remember anything later on. This is because those people, the members of that cult, that network, always give/administer the children substances that induce something that is comparable to an amnesia. (Benzodiazepines for example cause so called anterograde amnesia.)

It was definitely Katrice. I also remember, that I was confused, because it appeared like she was looking towards the door with one eye and towards me with the other.

...


And because their people are working in police forces and all kinds of authorities in Germany, there will be no help in the search for Katrice Lee. Believe me, I tried and went to the police and told them what I know about Katrice, but they're blocking everything and they're of course threatening me. I even contacted all the other relevant security authorities, but they didn't answer me, or they told me, that what I'm telling them is out of their jurisdiction. They obviously try to take me for an idiot.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1353.0
 
It's very interesting, but do 2-year-olds who've only just turned two usually know their last names and their mother's first?
 
It's very interesting, but do 2-year-olds who've only just turned two usually know their last names and their mother's first?
None that I have met. In fact when my boys were 2 as far as they were concerned my first name was Mom, they didn't realize I had an actual name.

I say that but there is always an exception to everything, so I'll go with not usually.
 
None that I have met. In fact when my boys were 2 as far as they were concerned my first name was Mom, they didn't realize I had an actual name.

I say that but there is always an exception to everything, so I'll go with not usually.
That's what I thought, especially that Mummy is simply Mummy, and has no other name.
 
This girl told this to him eight and nine yrs after the abduction. I find it hard to believe a two yr old could carry those memories for so many yrs unless the abductors called her by her name
 
This is a sad and strange case .

We do know it doesn't take long for a child to be abducted - seconds is all someone needs to take a random opportunity , especially in those days and at a busy store - would anyone notice someone leaving hurriedly with a child - not really .

I don't believe a child abducted at 2 wouldn remember Her parents and siblings or own name unless told by the adult caring for them since . Memories fade quickly and a kidnapped child wouldn't be told their origins because it works better for them not to know .

I do know if someone left their child with me at the check out that I wouldn't let them run after their parent in a store - the child stays with you or you follow . But that's neither here or there now I suppose .its easily done in the busy heat of the moment .

I doubt we will ever find out what really happened unless someone confesses - if a crime was committed .

There is a recent story here containing an interview with Katrices Mother - it is terribly sad and shows how the investigation was a travesty . The family were treated badly and the case bodged.

".......http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...want-to-know-what-happened-to-my-Katrice.html........"
 
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By the time my oldest was two she knew my first and last name and my ex's first and last name and her own.I am aware she's the exception and not the rule but it is possible..... my little on is not as knowledgeable, hell the poor kid thinks her name is "Sissy", "Me" or "Baby"
 
Found this...



And check out this comment by Jan Zimmermann...

I have seen Katrice Lee in spring 1990 in an apartment not very far away from Mainz, Germany. We had a short conversation. I was 5 years old at that time. The people, who held her captive, belong to a very larger network. The network now prevents that investigations proceed, because if the people who abducted her got caught, the whole network would be uncovered. - I had heard about such situations before in movies, but didn't believe, something like that would actually happen in reality. You don't believe it until you experience it.
 
Mystery still unresolved - Special - Where is my child - Part 1



Translated from German to English...

Published on Sep 3, 2013

Mystery still unresolved - Special - Where is my child.

For 31 long years, the parents of little Katrice Lee are trapped in a single nightmare. Her then two-year-old daughter disappeared in 1981 at a shopping - and has since been swallowed up by the earth. What happened to Katrice Lee? A special committee of the police tried to date everything humanly possible to find the missing, and starts playing and modern methods of investigation. But Katrice Lee is gone. Can the "XY" help onlookers police after all these years?

Comment by Jan Zimmermann (also translated from German to English)

In the spring of 1990 when I was just 5 years old, I met Katrice Lee not far from Mainz in an apartment. Katrice Lee spoke to me and told me who she was and that she is being held captive there. I saw her a second time in the spring of 1991. All I have Aktenzeichen XY informed the Royal Military Police, and the police in Bielefeld I was about it. And that's where the worm in it. Katrice Lee was kidnapped by members of a pedophile network, which can obviously take great influence on the work of the German police. What's happened to me in Bielefeld, I would not believe here anyway, so I do not write about it. Help to elucidate the fate of Katrice Lee, the judicial police in Bielefeld, anyway. Instead, there will continue to make every effort to present myself against the RMP as credible and let the investigations lead nowhere. Germany is so narrow-minded, everyone here believes that there is no corruption among police officers that a police officer looks at most times in the other direction when a friend moves too fast. Germany and his "great police," yeah .....
 
This would kill me, I think I could handle the death of one of my kids, if they suffered it would bring me to the edge of insanity..not having any idea if they are still suffering would be more than I could take. Not knowing where your kid is has to be the most awful feeling that there can be.
 
More on the case...

I just want to know what happened to my Katrice 20-01-13

Family requesting access to the case files...Nov 8, 2012


Katrice Lee - United Kingdom Parliament

Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab)

The investigation to find Katrice was botched from the very start. It appears that, because Katrice was the daughter of a serving British soldier stationed in Germany, there was considerable uncertainty as to who should take the lead in the investigation—whether it should be the Royal Military Police or the German authorities—and that valuable time, resources and evidence were either wasted or lost as this tussle over territorial jurisdiction and responsibility was debated. As a result, border staff were not notified of Katrice’s disappearance immediately, despite the fact that Paderborn is only two hours’ drive from the borders of the Netherlands and Belgium, as well as the northern ports of West Germany. No road blocks or checks were put in place, even though autobahn 33 cuts through Paderborn. Staff in the NAAFI supermarket on the shop floor and the tills where Katrice was last seen were not interviewed until six weeks after she went missing. Almost even worse, a sergeant-major at the base, who was close to the family and who had even looked after Katrice’s sister the week after she went missing, has only in the past month— 31 years after the disappearance—been identified as a key witness and interviewed by the authorities. How many other key witnesses and how much vital evidence have been lost due to the inadequate and incompetent handling of this case in the early days and weeks after Katrice went missing?

The family believe that the Royal Military Police were led quickly to an early conclusion by the German police inquiry that Katrice had wandered off out of the supermarket and had tragically drowned in the nearby river. However, the family strongly believe that that is simply implausible. It is difficult to believe that a two-year-old could wander out of a busy supermarket, past a crowd of shoppers, down a ramp, past a female ticket seller, across a crowded car park and then walk alone and undetected for more than 200 metres before somehow falling into the river.

Katrice had a real phobia of water, and the family strongly believe that, even if one could accept that she could emerge undetected at the water’s edge, she would have gone nowhere near the river. In addition, the river at that point had storm grates attached to it, but no evidence, such as a piece of clothing, has ever been found to have been captured by the grates in the river. The river has never given up any evidence that Katrice fell in, and yet that has been the authorities’ accepted scenario, without any tangible evidence, for many months and years.

The investigation has been subject to a catalogue of errors for decades. At the time of her disappearance, Katrice had a turn in her left eye—as did her sister—that would need corrective surgery at some point when she turned nine or 10. The Lee family raised that point personally with the officer heading the investigation, as they believed that it was a relatively unusual characteristic that could be used as part of the case and identified as a potential line of inquiry. Six months after informing the head of the investigation about the matter, the family asked the investigating officer whether progress had been made, only to be told by the officer in charge that he denied all knowledge of the information and informed that it was a “figment of the Lees’ imagination”. It does not seem unreasonable or particularly onerous for Interpol to have carried out a check of any medical procedures on a turn in a 10-year-old’s left eye in Germany or elsewhere on the continent in about 1989 or 1990, but no such lines of inquiry were pursued.

In February 2001, police and Army investigators took blood samples from Mr Lee and the whole family in the hope that advances in DNA analysis and technology would provide fresh leads. The DNA samples were to be placed on an Interpol database. However, earlier this year, some 30 years after Katrice went missing and more than a decade after the original samples had been provided, my constituent and the rest of the family were asked once again for samples. Despite the requests from Mr Lee, no explanation has ever been given for the second request. My constituent does not know whether the original DNA samples have been lost, degraded, used or checked against criminal evidence or hospital records.


The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Mr Mark Francois)

Under the NATO status of forces agreement, jurisdiction for the case rested with the Royal Military Police. Area searches were conducted on the ground, by helicopter and by diving teams in the nearby River Lippe. Large numbers of Royal Military Police, German police, British troops and volunteers—large numbers of people—worked tirelessly to try to find Katrice, but sadly, as we know, to no avail.

In February 2000, following a review by the then National Crime Faculty, the Royal Military Police again looked at the investigation and developed new lines of inquiry, which included the arrest and questioning of a former soldier, but ultimately, the case remained unsolved, partly owing to a lack of conclusive evidence, and the investigation was suspended in 2003.

In January 2012 the Royal Military Police reopened the investigation under the name Operation BUTE, and decided to go back to first principles to reinvestigate the case. Essentially, there is now a new police investigation using the very latest techniques and methodologies to explore all possible explanations for Katrice’s disappearance. The investigation team consists of military police personnel supported by experienced civilian investigators—all are trained to national policing standards. Investigators are using the latest Home Office large major inquiry system—the HOLMES 2 computer system—to provide a greater level of analysis of the available investigative material than was previously possible.

Expert advice has also been sought from the Serious Organised Crime Agency operational support team, specialists from the child abduction unit with the US Federal Bureau of Investigation at Quantico, and a range of other leading experts. Where evidence is available, the latest forensic techniques are being used, including DNA, offender profiling and facial age progression techniques. Investigators are also attempting to trace and re-interview the nearly 2,000 people who visited the NAAFI supermarket on the day that Katrice disappeared. We should bear in mind what a busy day it was, as I have explained.

All opportunities, including a planned further appeal on the BBC’s “Crimewatch” programme, which is due to take place later this month, are being pursued. I am advised that in cases of this type, an appeal even many years on can sometimes spark someone to come forward. We can only hope that that will happen in this instance.

Since the launch of Operation BUTE, the Royal Military Police have been engaged with the family using specialist family liaison officers, and every effort has been made to keep them informed of developments. That support to the Lee family will, of course, continue for as long as it needs to. I am conscious that the family, for perfectly understandable reasons, has sought access to files from the original investigation. However, as the hon. Gentleman has acknowledged, this is a live police investigation, and it is not appropriate to release that information at this stage, not least because we would risk prejudicing any potential criminal proceedings that may arise. However, there may be something that we can do, and I will come to that in a moment. All police forces also have a duty to protect the identity of anyone who comes to their attention during an investigation but against whom no further action was either possible or appropriate. The rules of natural justice must still apply.

I understand, and support, the unwavering determination of Katrice’s parents to uncover the truth of what happened, and I can assure them that there will be no attempt to cover up any past failings. I am happy to repeat previous assurances given to the family that the Royal Military Police will be open about any failings that are identified and that, when the time is right, we will look again at the issue of disclosure. I also know that Brigadier Bill Warren, the Provost Marshal (Army) and the chief officer of the Royal Military Police, has indicated that, at an appropriate point in his team’s work, he will ask a civilian police force to review the entire investigation. The outcome of that review will be shared with Katrice’s parents as far as it is possible to do so. I hope that, at least in part, addresses one of the points that the hon. Member for Hartlepool has put to the House.
 
By the time my oldest was two she knew my first and last name and my ex's first and last name and her own.I am aware she's the exception and not the rule but it is possible..... my little on is not as knowledgeable, hell the poor kid thinks her name is "Sissy", "Me" or "Baby"

I wouldn't be overly surprised at a toddler knowing their name or even their parents' full names, but I would be quite surprised if they remembered it for years after being taken away.
 
I do know if someone left their child with me at the check out that I wouldn't let them run after their parent in a store - the child stays with you or you follow . But that's neither here or there now I suppose .its easily done in the busy heat of the moment .

".......http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...want-to-know-what-happened-to-my-Katrice.html........"

It doesn't sound like the aunt knowingly let her run after the mom - the mom says the store was super-crowded and the aunt was loading groceries onto the conveyor belt, and that "maybe" her daughter ran after her. I don't think the aunt even realized until the mom returned and didn't see her.
 
The father of a toddler who went missing 35 years ago says that a re-investigation into her disappearance has become a "sham".

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) rejected the criticism and said it was pursuing several lines of inquiry.

It was launched four years ago and the girl's father, Richard Lee, of Hartlepool, believes its active status is a means of preventing the family accessing case files and details about previous attempts to find Katrice.

Additionally, a civilian police review of Operation Bute was completed 14 months ago and Mr Lee said the family had not been informed of its findings.

He said: "They haven't got my trust. [The MoD] treat my family with contempt.

"It's about time the MoD came clean. The RMP are making a complete and utter sham of being transparent and open."

The Lees have previously said they believe the youngster was abducted.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36128371
 
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