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But there are still crimes where the evidence is so conclusively overwhelming that there cannot be any iota of doubt as to guilt. In these cases I do think a relatively quick and humane execution is the lesser evil considering the depravity of the crime and the trauma of all those affected by it and who have to live knowing what was done by the offender to their loved ones.

What if the victim's loved ones did not want the offender to be put to death for their crimes? Should that factor into the equation, or would you still want to have your cake and eat it too? At what point do you admit that you want a person put to death for your satisfaction, and not because it does any good at all. It solves absolutely nothing.
 
What if the victim's loved ones did not want the offender to be put to death for their crimes? Should that factor into the equation, or would you still want to have your cake and eat it too? At what point do you admit that you want a person put to death for your satisfaction, and not because it does any good at all. It solves absolutely nothing.
If the victim's loved ones truly did not want the offender to be executed for whatever moral or ethical reasons they might have, then I have no issue with them being able to make a representation to the judge to that effect which can then be taken into account. Because the feelings of those closest to the victim do matter more than mine or yours, frankly.

And the issue is not merely one of how I feel but about how society as a whole feels, with myself just one member of that society. Yes, I personally feel that some crimes are so terrible that the perpetrator deserves to die, and where the evidence is so overwhelming that there is no possibility of wrongful conviction, then such a sentence should be applicable. But this is not some tiny minority view. A whole lot of people feel the same way so it is not just about the way I feel.

And I totally disagree that executing someone who has committed a terrible crime "solves absolutely nothing". Because it "solves" lots of things. It removes a demonstrably dangerous person capable of doing terrible things permanently from the scene. It can bring closure to the grieving relatives and loved ones very effectively. It can satisfy a desire of the general public to see justice being done. And it can act to deter at least some people from carrying out similar crimes.

And incidentally, I have already earlier issued my mea culpa, in which I openly admitted that how I FELT about things was partly influencing my opinion. So that point has already been reached and acknowledged. But I will not acknowledge that it achieves nothing because I do not believe that to be the case and have stated why.
 
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I have a couple of problems with the death penalty. Mostly ones that have to do with me not having ultimate control of the smiting but more-so that it's such an end game response to a much larger problem.

There is a very distinct instinct in me to bring back the guillotine, set it up in the middle of town square and start lopping off the heads of the most heinous offenders. I would get such immense satisfaction from knowing that people who we see in stories here everyday are removed from the planet I live on. Just wiped the fucked out of existence. Very gratifying indeed.

How do you know that the person you are killing was, without a doubt, guilty of their crimes? We've seen witch trials and hasty judgments to hang them high without due process through out history. How far have we come and that still hasn't worked? What's to say that due process hasn't failed and the ones being executed are the oopsie ones that slipped through? I don't want that on my conscience anymore than I want them living in on my dollar for the rest of their lives. It's a catch-22 for me.

It comes back for me to, "it takes a village." It takes a village to raise a child right. Even if that village has a populace of 250,000 people. That village should have many resources in place for children or mental motherfuckers who are obviously showing signs they needs help. That doesn't happen now. Anyone who has been to a psych ward will see it. Anyone who has that one crazy uncle who is in and out of prison will see it. There isn't enough education or follow through for the people who are most likely to end up in prison on death row.

Thank you www.deathpenatlyinfo.org for this lovely pie chart
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This is where we need to start. 36% with a medium education of 9-11th grade is fucking piss poor. You can get to 9-11th grade with min ability to read or write in some of the shittiest under-funded schools.

Long and the short of what I am saying is that education and funding would change the amount of people on death row. It wouldn't change that I want them to die for what they have done. In that, I guess I am wishy-washy. FUCK YEAH! Kill them...but you can't kill them because it won't change anything.
 
And I totally disagree that executing someone who has committed a terrible crime "solves absolutely nothing". Because it "solves" lots of things. It removes a demonstrably dangerous person capable of doing terrible things permanently from the scene.

That was done the moment they were locked up and also gives them the ability to do something worthwhile for society as some kind of amends, if they want to or not.

It can bring closure to the grieving relatives and loved ones very effectively. It can satisfy a desire of the general public to see justice being done. And it can act to deter at least some people from carrying out similar crimes.

I have not read the statistics on how people feel after someone is put to death for killing a loved one, so I have no idea if the majority effectively feel closure. I know if someone killed my loved one, that person being put to death will close nothing at all. In fact, for me personally, I'd rather they lived the rest of their lives in prison because I think that is worse.

As for the general public, keep putting it to a vote and let them decide if they want the death penalty employed in their state. Some feel justice has been served by putting them behind bars for the rest of their lives.

Lastly, as I have already shown, the death penalty does not deter murder. A life behind bars sure seems to when you compare the states that use the death penalty and the ones that don't.
 
Thanks @Countess Olenska.

You freely admit that you'd find the idea of those guilty of the most heinous crimes just put down permanently a satisfying one, even though you oppose the DP for a variety of reasons. That is pretty much a normal human response. And if @Morbid or anyone else wants me to spell it out in absolutely crystal clear terms, yes, I too find the idea of those guilty of such terrible things simply being done away with a satisfying one. It satisfies an innate desire within me to see justice done, and is powerfully fueled by compassion for the victim and their loved ones, as well as - admittedly - loathing for the person who did something so terrible.

But I too seriously don't want anyone executed if there is even the slightest possibility of them being innocent, any more than you do. That is why it should only be applicable where the evidence is so overwhelming that there is no room for a single iota of doubt in regards to the guilt of the offender.

Bear in mind that I have a British perspective on this. I live in a country where life very rarely means life, and the vast majority even of those guilty of the most terrible crimes end up living freely amongst us again at some point, sometimes doing other terrible things again. I could be persuaded to give up my belief in the death penalty only if life truly meant life for the worst kind of scum we read about here.
 
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Thank you for your imput here @Morbid.

I honestly appreciate it, and I am glad that this debate is being conducted in such a non-personal and thoughtful way by everyone.

And in your last post above you have made some very good points that deserve addressing. Sadly though it is now nearly 2am here and I am rapidly tiring, but promise to respond properly on the other side of sleep.
 
It satisfies an innate desire within me to see justice done, and is powerfully fueled by compassion for the victim and their loved ones, as well as - admittedly - loathing for the person who did something so terrible.

Yeah, I get it. You are basically saying you want to murder someone to satisfy your own needs, whatever they may be. In a lot of cases, that's not too far removed from the same motivations that fueled the person you want dead, to murder in the first place. Understood.
 
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Yeah, I get it. You are basically saying you want to murder someone to satisfy your own needs, whatever they may be. In a lot of cases, that's not too far removed from the same motivations that fueled the person you want dead to murder in the first place. Understood.

If that were true, then it is true of the majority of humanity. But the above is itself an emotive oversimplification. The motivations are hardly the same in the way you are trying to portray. But addressing that properly also must wait until the other side of sleep.

Just before crashing out, though, I cannot resist pointing out something I have stated before. Execution for a terrible crime is not the same as murder. The difference is one of guilt or innocence and the involvement of due process. You are using emotive but innacurate language to try to prove a point.
 
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I see it as evil people who are caught red handed doing evil things to people need to be put down ASAP, just like mad dogs. I know it won't deter others from committing evil crimes, but it stops the mad dogs from hurting anyone else.

I know we're spinning our wheels on this, because the population is getting bigger and bigger, with more criminals being churned out faster than we can rid ourselves of them, but we can't sit back and make Smore's and sing Kumbya around the campfire about it. They're taking over as it is. Heaven or hell, the devil or God the Father, whatever you believe, we have to do something. If we sit back and do nothing, what then?

We can't keep up this system. These people are cared for better than you would think. I agree with appeals, unless they're caught in the act, but it shouldn't drag on for years. I get enraged about these nasty thugs who harm innocents and wish painful torture on them, but even though I volunteer to give out that torture, I still think they should be taken out back and shot in the head. Anybody can say they repent. Sorry. I just don't believe it. No, I've never been arrested for a damn thing, because I don't do bad things.

Everybody has a choice to do good or evil. Point being, it's a choice. If you're truly insane, that's one thing. Mental illness is another. If you do something really bad, run or hide the evidence, you're guilty. You get no free pass.
We need to change the laws for people who have done minor stuff like pot smoking. There's people in for long sentences for that, and you can kill a 4 year old and get out in 2 years! Simplify the law and we would be much better off.

Even though we all talk about it, nothing ever changes.


I do enjoy reading other people's opinions without the juvenile name calling and emotional BS. That's uncalled for. Have a good night, all.
 
They're taking over as it is. Heaven or hell, the devil or God the Father, whatever you believe, we have to do something. If we sit back and do nothing, what then?

They aren't taking over. Crime rates are the lowest now than they have been in a long, long time. The prisons are only being built and filled because they are a business and stuffed with low-level drug dealers and recreational drug users. As far as sitting back and doing nothing? No one has suggested that. What we do know is that killing them doesn't work, and it never will. It has nothing to do about singing songs around a campfire and everything to do with doing something that works and cutting away what does not.

As pointed out by @Countess Olenska and mentioned by myself and Athena numerous times on this forum and in the podcasts, fixing crime would be to attack the root of the crimes, not punishing after the crime has been committed. Education is the key that no one seems to want to invest in, or chooses to ignore. Then if you really want to make a difference, tackle the way we handle the mentally ill in this country. Lastly, for those who have been convicted of a crime, focus on public shaming and rehabilitation.
 
That [protecting the public] was done the moment they were locked up and also gives them the ability to do something worthwhile for society as some kind of amends, if they want to or not.
I fully accept that locking someone in jail protects the public just as readily as executing them - but only for so long as they remain locked up. In the UK almost all of them end up being released again at some point, some of whom go on to commit other terrible crimes. As I have already conceded, I might be won round to abandoning support for the death penalty only if life truly meant life in such cases.

I do concede that arguing directy for that - life meaning life - as I have long done on politics forums - would be just as effective in regards to protecting the public. I also concede that even the most evil (in terms of their crimes) offenders might be made to give something back to society and do good in some way.

But most of them are just plain bad and locking them away - whilst protecting the general public - would in no way protect their fellow inmates, many of whom might be incarcerated for much less serious offences and are due for release at some point, hopefully rehabilitated. Many of those in jail who are not there for life are potentially - if they can be successfully rehabilitated - future productive citizens, and the kind of evil scum we hear about so often on this forum are a danger to them too whilst they remain alive and sharing a prison with them.

I have not read the statistics on how people feel after someone is put to death for killing a loved one, so I have no idea if the majority effectively feel closure. I know if someone killed my loved one, that person being put to death will close nothing at all. In fact, for me personally, I'd rather they lived the rest of their lives in prison because I think that is worse.

As for the general public, keep putting it to a vote and let them decide if they want the death penalty employed in their state. Some feel justice has been served by putting them behind bars for the rest of their lives.
For some, their execution might not bring any closure. Others might even prefer them to spend a lifetime behind bars because they believe that to be worse. And there will always be those who simply have moral and ethical objections to the death penalty. And it is possible to imagine scenarios where an execution could considerably add to the anguish of loved ones. For example, if the victim had been a lifelong campaigner against the death penalty, their loved ones might well feel that he/she is being much better honoured by insisting that his/her killer not be executed. I'd feel that way myself in such a scenario, and the last thing I would want then is the offender to be executed because of the disrespect this would entail for everything that my lost loved one for stood for. So I am all for close relatives of the murdered loved one being able to request that the death penalty not be imposed.

But on the issue of closure, in the UK certainly the majority of victim's loved ones do express a desire to have the perpetrators executed, and regret that we do not have a death penalty anymore. Of course in many cases there is a lot of raw emotion involved here and it is possible that some might no longer feel this way once their anger, sorrow, and pain have eased. But several relatives of victims who have been interviewed over the years have gone public with their feelings of relief and peace at last in situations where their loved one's killer just happens to have died behind bars. So for some it really does bring closure. And I am sure it would for me. But like you, I don't have quantifiable statistics to hand.

Lastly, as I have already shown, the death penalty does not deter murder. A life behind bars sure seems to when you compare the states that use the death penalty and the ones that don't.

Well, I have already conceded that it is probably no more effective at deterring it than a lifetime behind bars would be. But I am not convinced it would be any less effective either. And deterrence is not the only reason for a death penalty in any case. But on the issue of deterrence, all those who have murdered have clearly not been deterred at all. But what we cannot know or quantify is how many others there might be who could and would have done similarly terrible things but who did not, precisely because of the fear of the consequences.

Statistically speaking, though, you do have a very good case on this one. Those who oppose any possibility of reintroduction of the death penalty here frequently cite your nation as they point out that nations with a death penalty seem to have much higher murder rates than those without. Our per capita murder rate is substantially lower than yours. And you yourself have made the point that even from state state to state within the USA, murder rates are lower in the states that do not have a DP.

But, in the absence of a logical connection as to why a death penalty would make people less fearful of killing someone, I do suspect that the reasons behind your much higher murder rate has more to do with other factors, eg the availability of guns to the bad guys. But the gun issue is a seperate argument entirely, and the right to bear arms is important to you guys, so I am not going to say it's in any way wrong. I don't regard that as my argument and am happy to leave the gun issue to you guys, other than to suggest that the ease with which bad guys can get hold of them in a society awash with guns may well have a negative impact on the murder rate.

It would be interesting to see a statistical analysis of the differing murder rates in states alongside an analysis of how strict or relaxed they are about access to guns, and whether or not there is any correlation.

Other factors could play a part too - eg the prevalence of economic poverty, degrees of inequality, extent of hard drug use, the degree to which gang culture has been able to take root, etc.

I remain open-minded in these areas for anyone seeking to persuade with hard facts and statistics.
 
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They aren't taking over. Crime rates are the lowest now than they have been in a long, long time. The prisons are only being built and filled because they are a business and stuffed with low-level drug dealers and recreational drug users. As far as sitting back and doing nothing? No one has suggested that. What we do know is that killing them doesn't work, and it never will. It has nothing to do about singing songs around a campfire and everything to do with doing something that works and cutting away what does not.

As pointed out by @Countess Olenska and mentioned by myself and Athena numerous times on this forum and in the podcasts, fixing crime would be to attack the root of the crimes, not punishing after the crime has been committed. Education is the key that no one seems to want to invest in, or chooses to ignore. Then if you really want to make a difference, tackle the way we handle the mentally ill in this country. Lastly, for those who have been convicted of a crime, focus on public shaming and rehabilitation.

A bunch of politicians here had a slogan a while back that caught the public mood - "Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime." It doesn't have to be an either/or. I have long been in favour of tackling the root causes of crime - poverty, drug addiction, treating mental illness more effectively, more effective rehabilitation of petty offenders before they become serious ones, education, and so on. And somehow creating real economic chances even for those not bright enough to get a university degree, and stuff like that are all important.

But that doesn't mean that when someone has crossed moral and social red lines to the extent that the very worst offenders have, they should not be dealt with toughly.

And the response of @True Blue is a common one. A desire to see justice done in this way, by simply doing away with those who are guilty of crimes of the utmost barbarity, is actually a pretty normal one and does not make us bad people.

But I want to address this next paragraph to you personally, @Morbid. Maybe you are not my biggest fan, at least not on this issue.....

You are basically saying you want to murder someone to satisfy your own needs, whatever they may be. In a lot of cases, that's not too far removed from the same motivations that fueled the person you want dead to murder in the first place. Understood.

But I have tried to avoid going down the route this kind of debate usually goes down - one side saying that the pro-DP lobby are no better than the murderers themselves and motivated by the same sick and primitive desires and morally no better,and the other side saying that anti-DP speakers are lilly-livered and gutless apologists for murdering scum and who care about them more than the victims. Let me say right now that I personally do not believe the latter but have heard over the years such sentiments expressed by less thoughtful people. So might I most respectfully suggest that we avoid making moral condemnations of each other just because we may disagree on this one? My point of view on this does not make me a morally bad person, nor does it in any way indicate that I am motivated by the same kinds of evil thoughts that the murderers themselves are.

And may I ask you a question? You used to be a supporter of the death penalty, right? I am sure you were still not a bad person then. I don't think most supporters of the DP are, any more than it's opponents are. So what reasoning did you have in your mind at the time for supporting it? Just curious.
 
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So might I most respectfully suggest that we avoid making moral condemnations of each other just because we may disagree on this one? My point of view on this does not make me a morally bad person, nor does it in any way indicate that I am motivated by the same kinds of evil thoughts that the murderers themselves are.

Sure it does. I was simply responding to your post in which you were making it crystal clear to me and others why you feel so pro death penalty. Here it is:

It satisfies an innate desire within me to see justice done, and is powerfully fueled by compassion for the victim and their loved ones, as well as - admittedly - loathing for the person who did something so terrible.

You basically stated you want the person put to death because you loathe them. If that is one of the reasons why you want someone murdered, fine. I could care less. I am just saying a lot of people are currently on death row for killing someone for the exact same reason. I appreciate the honesty, but for me that is not a good enough reason.

So what reasoning did you have in your mind at the time for supporting it? Just curious.

Because of the lot of reasons you are stating, that I came to realize were not well-thought out and, more importantly, do nothing to change why people are on death row in the first place.
 
My point of view on this does not make me a morally bad person.

Sure it does.

Thanks for your last response @Morbid.

I get that you think I am a morally bad person - you have stated that plainly, here. Hey, we can't always be liked and respected by everyone we meet. That's life. But it's kind of disappointing to me that the person in charge here has such a low opinion of me.

Oh well, that's just tough shit on me I suppose. I think what I think, and will not pretend to think otherwise.

But I think your assessment of me is wrong. And if it isn't, then a large chunk of your membership is potentially open to the same charge of being morally bad.

I have always been very open and honest about my emotions and feelings, even the negative ones. I don't really take astrology seriously, but those who do often tell me I am so typically Cancer in that respect. But I do very much try and temper my feelings with reason and logic.

Yes, when someone does something truly awful, and irreversible, especially if it be deliberate and without remorse or done simply for personal gratification, ie they enjoyed it, then yes I do hate them for what they have done. And my compassion for the victim and their loved ones merely reinforces that.

Does that make me morally bad though? And is that kind of negative emotional reaction not also a normal one? Because I know of many other decent members here - and so you no doubt do too - who would feel exactly the same way. It is not wrong to feel this way. It is actually cathartic and normal to feel this way, and to vent and let off steam about the way we feel. Many members here do it all the time.

But what is wrong - I am with you on that - is to want someone to die purely because you hate them for what they have done. If that were the only thing that lay behind my thinking I would still be as much of an opponent of the death penalty as you are. My support for a DP - only in cases where there can be not the slightest possibility about the guilt of the offender - has many more reasons behind it than that, and I have during this thread given many of them. Even the bit you quoted in citing my loathing of the perpetrator, I also stated that I was powerfully motivated by compassion for the victim and their loved ones! And I have said that in many cases the DP could bring closure for these. And so on. You misjudge me entirely if you actually believe I support a DP purely because I want to see people I hate die. You have chosen to focus upon one thing and condemn me for that without acknowledging the bigger picture in my argument before judging me so.

I will though reiterate this point because it is important. To hate someone - who has deliberately done something truly horrific - for what they have done, is normal and human and something that most people feel to some significant extent. It is not immoral to feel that way. Not to care at all would be far worse. And so many people out there hate other people for so much less. When someone has tortured a kid to death it is natural to hate them for it. And I am honest enough about my feelings to freely admit that.

You may disagree, but I do not believe that this makes me a morally bad person.
 
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I get that you think I am a morally bad person - you have stated that plainly, here. Hey, we can't always be liked and respected by everyone we meet. That's life. But it's kind of disappointing to me that the person in charge here has such a low opinion of me.

Hagar, I am the one who has no morals. I don't think of you, morally, one way or the other. I think I have stated that I could care less what you think in regards to killing someone. I am speaking more from the standpoint of common sense - two words I have also repeated when talking about the death penalty - that our death penalty makes no sense.

Is it moral or not? Are you moral or not? Are our members moral or not? Is the world moral or not? I could really care less. Hell, the majority of my day is spent being immoral in the eyes of today's society. Who am I to judge?
 
Hagar, I am the one who has no morals. I don't think of you, morally, one way or the other. I think I have stated that I could care less what you think in regards to killing someone. I am speaking more from the standpoint of common sense - two words I have also repeated when talking about the death penalty - that our death penalty makes no sense.

Is it moral or not? Are you moral or not? Are our members moral or not? Is the world moral or not? I could really care less. Hell, the majority of my day is spent being immoral in the eyes of today's society. Who am I to judge?

Thanks @Morbid

Morality is in any case very much a subjective thing. Some people think it wrong to have sex before marriage for moral reasons. Not everyone else agrees or abides by that. I am socially and morally very liberal. In both sexual and all other aspects of human behaviour, my mottos very much are - "anything goes between consenting adults if no one is hurting anyone" and "all adults should be free to do whatever the hell they like without being judged or punished for it, as long as they are not harming or impinging upon the freedoms, rights and wellbeing of others." But everyone's moral basis differs. It's a moveable feast, and a shaky basis to debate logical arguments around.

So let's none of us here make moral judgements about anyone else and instead argue with logic and/or facts. Because I am much more open to persuasion with those than I am to any kind of moral critique, and suspect most people are. I feel very secure and comfortable in my own morality.

Anyway, you and I are probably - in spite of the underlying intensity of emotions sometimes in my case - amongst some of the most rationally-minded debaters here. So it is curious that we have come closer to a heated argument here than anyone else. I'd rather we took a step back from that and didn't go down that route, for which reason I am going to step away from this thread for a few hours to fully recover my sense of laid back debate.

A little more of this - :)

And a little less of this - :banghead:

:hilarious: :hilarious: :hilarious:
 
If I need to take out the repost of this link, I'll be happy to, but after watching this vid clip on "Top 50 Serial Killer Moments" (at the end), posted by @taintfutcha , my outline and flow chart are in the trash, I'm finished trying to figure out how to correctly put it together, and I'm just dumping it out unformatted, unorganized, and to hell with decorum. If I were asked to vote for the Death Penalty in this country as it stands, you could twist my voting arm right out of its socket and I'd still be screaming, "Never!" Period.

Between our "kangaroo court" system (Rules of Evidence, Prejudicing the Jury, Juries only voting on what they're "allowed" to know, etc.), the seriously *flawed* Jury System itself in which gang mentality often takes over during long, emotional trials and "naysayers" and "hold-outs" are flat out insulted, brow-beaten and bullied into going along with the "popular vote" so they can wrap "it" up (the "it" being the life and freedom of the human being on trial) and get back to their lives, and the entire pomp, pageantry and thespian staging of two or more attorneys pitted "against" each other to see which one wins the Oscar for Best, Most Manipulative Actor in a Real Live Drama Series, forget it. Not in this lifetime, not ever. No DP cases on my end, but in criminal court, been there, watched some horrendously unjust, unethical shit happen, threw the dirty tee shirt in the trash.

My biggest reason has already been well-covered here. The two statements that best encapsulate my lifelong, deeply held moral convictions on this are a common variation/adaptation of Blackstone's Ratio, "It is better to let 10 guilty men go free than to condemn one innocent man to death, " and the more contemporary saying CB already referenced on a tee shirt I have, "Why do we kill people to teach people that killing people is wrong?" But, do I *believe* in the Death Penalty? AbsoTivelyPosiLutely.

As I mentioned, this isn't formatted, and I don't expect anyone to agree, but:

(1) I cannot remember a time in my life ever since learning about/studying everything I could get my hands on serial killers/rapists, serial sexual sadists/murders, i.e., the people highlighted in this vid clip, as human "specimens" in an objective, scientific sense - very different from human beings; the worst of the worst individuals within the human species; fascinating, defective, dangerously rogue, infectious, broken human beings who're somehow hardwired to become who/what they became, be it Nature, Nurture, or both.

(2) When I pull back objectively, take the "ego" out of humanity and look at us strictly as another evolving mammalian species on this planet, I compare the way in which other species interact and deal with the weak, sick, antisocial members of their social groups and communities. Like the rest of these social species whose instinct it is to breed out and weed out bad genetics and other undesirable traits to maintain the strongest, most genetically desirable traits to aid in the healthy survival of their populations (not talking Eugenics, just ordinary, evolutionary survival), we also contain these mostly subconcious instincts when it comes to these kinds of human beings.

(3) Though in our relative childhoods of biogenetics, endocrinology, the brain sciences, and many other fields, we *do* have a lot of the base technology in all the various fields of Science, esp. all medically/psychologically-relative sciences, to be able to accurately study and in some cases, treat and even cure human defects, diseases, and other conditions that affect humankind. What we're doing on Biogenetic fronts alone (as terrifying as the bad side is) is ground-breaking and truly cutting edge. Useful, helpful new diagnostics and gene therapies, for example, are being developed not only to genetically "cure" many diseases in the already living who're afflicted, but also to help avoid them altogether in the form of genetic innoculations, so to speak, against the genes that carry the diseased, defective information.

(4) As I ranted in a post in this link after watching the vid clip cameos, the psychological, behavioral and personality-type characteristic similarities between the people in this group are *so* obvious, I believe we are failing ourselves by *not* using these lifers for Science and the moral strengthing and betterment of humanity. I believe this particular group and others like them are irreparably broken units; human beings who cannot serve humanity or "pay it back" in any way, shape or form sitting in prison being treated like macabre celebrities, "Oooo and Ahhh'ed" over (and they are), but they *can* do the *best* thing they could *ever* do in their lives to give something of real, lasting and incredible value back on a meaningful level - themselves.

For the sake of length, I'm going to skip further explanation in this post, take the heat for the explanations I'm leaving out, and just say my TT question "Should Prisoners Be Used For Medical Experiments," was, for me and me alone, based on this group of people right here, and others like them as they're finally caught, and my poll answer was "Yes." That's why I wanted respondants to put in their own qualifiers and conditions rather than me defining any group or circumstance.

IMO, when all approved criteria for this particular group of predators is met, they are proven guilty in an *ethical* court of law and/or they admit to their grisly, abhorrent crimes, and bona fide mental illness is ruled out, I believe a mandatory penalty of donation of themselves for *ethical* criminal Scientific study, investigation and research from all relative fields (via ethical established criteria) should be imposed, and if they refuse, the DP is imposed and they are literally, immediately taken out by firing squad using "vitals" shots only, to keep it as humane as possible - no head shots b/c their brains and bodies immediately go to the Research Scientists who can study their brains, hormones, blood chemistries, and so on, post mortem. Once this is done, their remains should be cremated for any family member(s)/loved ones who want them. And that is that.

I do not feel this way b/c I "hate them," "want revenge", or for any other "me" reason other than the advancement of Science to one day help reduce/prevent these kinds of human genetic defects from being passed along in the gene pool, or the growth and development of these types being caught *after* they destroy 23+ innocent people and hundreds of their loved ones lives. Paying millions for them to sit in prison with this vitally important, life-saving, society-changing information locked inside of them to simply bide their time and eventually waste away taking the keys to the betterment of humankind to their graves is one of the most sickening, disgusting wastes of life, Pro-Human Science, and a solid, *real* opportunity for them to "give something back" besides best-selling "all about so and so" books I can think of when it comes to this issue. This human, compulsive drive and the psychophysiological positive feedback system that temporarily gives them a highly pleasurable "sexkillrapedestroygasm" needs to be identified, IMO.

I'm very familiar with the lives of the cruel and violent in prison as well as in a few higher profile cases here and 99.9% (my guestimate) of the sick, violent, predatory population do *not* "suffer" anything at all, but a scant few who have been killed by inmates.

As always, JMO, Your Mileage May Vary.

Link to vid:
http://www.dreamindemon.com/community/threads/serial-killer-moments-some-graphic-footage.75697/
 
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@gatekeeper , I think you will find early childhood development/abuse and head injuries are two repeating variables in looking at serial killers/rapists/arsonists/abusers who are not suffering from psychotic and or schizophrenic episodes.
 
@gatekeeper , I think you will find early childhood development/abuse and head injuries are two repeating variables in looking at serial killers/rapists/arsonists/abusers who are not suffering from psychotic and or schizophrenic episodes.

I fully understand those may be data gleaned in whatever percentage they occur under the conditions I outlined. There are also those who don't have these as contributing factors.Either way, they can provide excellent research data re: brain mapping, PET scans, certain Nuclear Med scans, etc. We already know there are some behavioral factors that link some of them (ref. the FBI's Robert Ressler and Roy Hazelwood's brilliant development of criminal profiling).

I've worked with many functioning closed head injury and perm. brain trauma patients both old, new, adult, teen and pediatric, recently and remotely, in hospitals, psych hospitals and in prisons including those who had abusive childhoods. A comparative few did commited violent crimes, but not to this prolific, specialized category, and most never commited a crime at all.

It's certainly a sad fact children are abused and that however it came about, irreparable brain damage occurs (Nurture principal, head trauma from abuse, independent head trauma, etc.), but that in no way negates the reality of who they are and what they did before they were stopped. Emotion does not enter my equation or change my stance. Again, if they are not deemed to have bona fide mental illness (we cannot put the mentally ill to death, thus they don't qualify for the mandatory donation ultimatum), and the conditions I referenced are met, I am very comfortable with my opinion.
 
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i dont like death penalty because it means their punishment is over they should have to live a long life in a small cell alone and have 1 song played on a loop constantly and should know that they wont get out or be spoke to ever again
 
i dont like death penalty because it means their punishment is over they should have to live a long life in a small cell alone and have 1 song played on a loop constantly and should know that they wont get out or be spoke to ever again
I'd rather my taxes went toward improved mental health care
Than some murderers cable TV, private cell and lawyers
 
I'd rather my taxes went toward improved mental health care
Than some murderers cable TV, private cell and lawyers
Not all states are created equal when it comes to death row. Some states do not give death penalty inmates tv, or phone priveleges.
 
Bring back hard labour as a required part of imprisonment and I might be ok with LWOP sentences. To hell with the cable TV, computer time, and Xbox to keep them docile, they ought to be so exhausted by their toil in the fields and mines, repaving the thousands of miles of Interstates, or whatever that they fall onto their beds exhausted after gobbling their dinner rations. This is the only way I think prison (short of Maximum Security) should be run. No idle hours on weekdays to plot coups, no milling aimlessly about the yard; Monday through Friday all day and Saturdays until noon should be spent hard at work. Until then, incarceration won't be enough and won't do any good.
 
Angola is a perfect example of what @Azryhael said. Their own zip code, inmate operated farms, hard labor. They also are rewarded as well (a prison rodeo, if they still have it) but from the outside it seems the correctional model they follow is working pretty well.
 
Angola is a perfect example of what @Azryhael said. Their own zip code, inmate operated farms, hard labor. They also are rewarded as well (a prison rodeo, if they still have it) but from the outside it seems the correctional model they follow is working pretty well.
Angola is exactly what I was thinking of. They're virtually self-sufficient. And there has to be a reward/privilege structure in place, or else lifers have zero incentive to be good and work hard.

ETA: America is facing an infrastructure crisis; the highways built nearly seventy years ago are crumbling, and state DOTs are paying billions for contracted companies to drag their heels on repairs. Chain-gang-style prisoner labour would cut costs dramatically, as shovelling gravel, placing cones, and holding a "Slow" sign are minimum-skill jobs that are still necessary. Trusties could work their way up to better, more skilled jobs under supervision.
 
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forgot to add this to my reasons to oppose the DP. This is a list of executed men who were probably innocent.

Carlos de Luna
Ruben Cantu
Cameron Todd Willingham
Troy Davis
Claude Jones
Larry Griffin
Joseph O'Dell
David Spence
Gary Graham
 
forgot to add this to my reasons to oppose the DP. This is a list of executed men who were probably innocent.

Carlos de Luna
Ruben Cantu
Cameron Todd Willingham
Troy Davis
Claude Jones
Larry Griffin
Joseph O'Dell
David Spence
Gary Graham
Probably is weak/opinion
 
I used to be pro death penalty, until I saw the Paradise Lost documentaries. Damien Echols being sentenced to death really opened my eyes to innocent people being convicted.

I still believe people such as the assholes that killed the Petit family should be sentenced to death. So I'm pretty much torn on the issue.
 
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