• You must be logged in to see or use the Shoutbox. Besides, if you haven't registered, you really should. It's quick and it will make your life a little better. Trust me. So just register and make yourself at home with like-minded individuals who share either your morbid curiousity or sense of gallows humor.
I want to kind of dispel a few things I've been reading in here… just from my point of view as a special ed teacher.

A "severe learning disability" is not the same as saying someone is "severely disabled." A learning disability means your IQ is within the normal range, just that there is a discrepancy between the capacity to learn and actual achievement. (Meaning: There's no reason they shouldn't be able to learn, but they still can't.)

Someone with a learning disability can/should appear normal, they generally have normal (or close to) self-help skills.They'd be able to take selfies, possibly learn to drive without much extra trouble… They could even go to the bar and have a beer. There's no law against that.

Shoot, I teach kids with IQs under 50-60 and they can take selfies too. :) I bet I could even teach a few of the higher functioning ones to drive! Not that I'll be doing that…

I'm definitely on the fence about this girl, though. If she only has a learning disability, that wouldn't effect her ability to know right from wrong… however just looking at her face… there could be something more going on.

I'll be interested to see if they pursue an official diagnosis and what that might be.

Thank you for the insight...

It is my firm belief that this girl *does* have a learning disability and I am also interested in the official diagnosis.

However, I do think that she knew she was pregnant because she told people of her due date when they asked. She went out of her way to hide the pregnancy and baby from her parents, so she had some idea of what having a baby meant. She didn't stop drinking when she was pregnant, either. This prompts me to wonder if her learning disability is an honest excuse for this behavior... maybe excuse is the wrong word... I'm just having trouble finding the right one... ;)

The mental health professionals dealing with this case have a lot of influence on how this case turns out. I don't think the learning disability matters much here... but that is easy for me to say.
 
I don't agree. One of the articles says she was receiving special education services. In order to receive them, she would have had to be evaluated by a Multi-Disciplinary team, including an Educational Psychologist, and found to qualify. I find it hard to believe she could fool a whole team. (And if she recieved them for more than 3 years, she would have to fool them each time she came up for re-evaluation.) Yeah, it does happen that kids who shouldn't get services do, but it's not super common. It's more often a kid who needs services has slipped through the cracks and isn't getting them.
Special education classes can be a lot of things, behavioral, communication, emotional, physical, developmental. So her being in special education doesn't really tell much.

All schools differ from district to district, some districts will put any kid they can into special education, my district had such a huge amount they had to get another building, and now that building is exclusively special education. We live in a very small community, so the amount of S.E. kids percentage wise is ridiculous.
 
Special education classes can be a lot of things, behavioral, communication, emotional, physical, developmental. So her being in special education doesn't really tell much.

All schools differ from district to district, some districts will put any kid they can into special education, my district had such a huge amount they had to get another building, and now that building is exclusively special education. We live in a very small community, so the amount of S.E. kids percentage wise is ridiculous.

Correct, however since they are saying she has a Learning Disability, that does tell about the type of special education she would be receiving. Usually students with a LD are only served academically in special education, and perhaps communication if they also have a speech disorder.

That may or may not be true, as well, though federal and state laws require that the school district justify serving a student through the multi-disciplinary team (term may vary from state to state) and special education evaluation reports. I don't know anything about your district, but if they have an unusually high percentage of the population receiving special education services, they will be looked at closely by the state. If you are in a very small community surrounded by other small communities, you might also be serving some other districts' students. The district I worked for often served kids from other districts because we had more specialized programs, though they have since quit allowing this because our numbers have risen.
 
She admitted she knew that not providing any care for the baby was wrong, but said she didn't want her parents to 'freak out' or to know that she'd been pregnant and delivered a baby

Bet they are beaming with pride now!

If you are afraid of your parents 'freaking out' about a pregnancy, keep your fucking legs closed! And at 23 years old, you know exactly what you are doing. If she had a learning disability that impaired her logical thinking of action vs. consequence, she should not have been alone long enough to get knocked up in the first place. Just another "my broken brain" defense.
 
Correct, however since they are saying she has a Learning Disability, that does tell about the type of special education she would be receiving. Usually students with a LD are only served academically in special education, and perhaps communication if they also have a speech disorder.
I truly respect your input, I just want to add that every district is different. For example, I know folks who competed at the State level in Special Olympics and the only "disability" they and was needing extra help in math and as adults hold jobs, raise families and run households.

My point was not that she had some academic difficulties and even needed the assistance of the Special Education department but rather that not every disability lessens your culpability in a crime like this. Her parents were quick to point out her (at this point) imagined disability as there has been no diagnosis but then all her social media activity comes out showing a young woman with the capability of communicating her wants and needs which flies in the face of her parents allegations that she was too disabled to appreciate the wrongfulness of her action.
 
A "severe learning disability" is not the same as saying someone is "severely disabled." A learning disability means your IQ is within the normal range, just that there is a discrepancy between the capacity to learn and actual achievement. (Meaning: There's no reason they shouldn't be able to learn, but they still can't.)
Someone with a learning disability can/should appear normal, they generally have normal (or close to) self-help skills.They'd be able to take selfies, possibly learn to drive without much extra trouble… They could even go to the bar and have a beer. There's no law against that.
Shoot, I teach kids with IQs under 50-60 and they can take selfies too. I bet I could even teach a few of the higher functioning ones to drive! Not that I'll be doing that…
You are correct about this point, I did use the term "severely disabled" instead of "severe learning disabled" when captioning pictures of Alicia-- and I truly apologize if I offended anybody by being insensitive. I should have understood that there is a difference between the 2 diagnosis.
If you notice, just before the 'partying' pictures of Alicia were released, I had posted an interview with her parents where
they described their daughter as so "learning disabled" that she was "not able to care for herself" ,"didn't know she was pregnant, "doesn't understand that what she did was wrong" , & "Could barely read & was unable to write"
Link

If we accept her parents assertion that Alicia cannot understand that killing a baby is wrong, then she must be functioning on an extremely low mental level. I felt sympathy for her, until...the pictures came out, along with the descriptions of Alicia from her friends-- she's driving, partying, drinking while pregnant, telling people on FB her baby's due date!

Hmmm...writing FB posts AND understanding concepts like 'due dates'?!?! Doesn't sound AT ALL like the person her parents had portrayed- I felt duped & angry.

So when I captioned those pictures as "severely disabled" Alicia Englert taking selfies & driving", I did it with a tinge of sarcasm & frustration. And until they prove in court that she truly DID NOT understand that attempting to kill her baby was WRONG, then I'm going to save my sympathy for the real victim in this case--
Baby Hope!
 
Last edited:
Me too, they said she has never been diagnosed with anything at all.

Correct! School districts cannot diagnose, they can only determine if special education is needed.

I truly respect your input, I just want to add that every district is different. For example, I know folks who competed at the State level in Special Olympics and the only "disability" they and was needing extra help in math and as adults hold jobs, raise families and run households.

My point was not that she had some academic difficulties and even needed the assistance of the Special Education department but rather that not every disability lessens your culpability in a crime like this. Her parents were quick to point out her (at this point) imagined disability as there has been no diagnosis but then all her social media activity comes out showing a young woman with the capability of communicating her wants and needs which flies in the face of her parents allegations that she was too disabled to appreciate the wrongfulness of her action.

Correct, again, school districts cannot medically diagnose anything. They only determine if a student qualifies for special education. When they do make this qualification, they have to do it under a category. The categories available vary by state, though. The two categories in Washington that this girl may fall under are Developmental Delay (though not really as there is an age limit of 9 here - some states do not have that limit) or Learning Disability. Those are usually the two categories we would use if there is no medical diagnosis to aid identification. Districts have to follow state law, though, and state law is modeled after federal law. So while there are variances, they usually aren't huge.

And I totally agree! She does not appear to have a disability that would interfere with her ability to know right and wrong at this point.

and Momzilla,

I agree! Two completely different pictures being painted here. These parents seem to be a bit blinded… Which is sad, because they do also seem very caring. I deal with this a lot. Some parents just want to shelter their kids and keep them from harm, but also don't want to face reality!

I'm very interested to see how this unfolds...
 
I having a hard time with mom & dad saying they didn't know or have any suspicions of a pregnancy. Obviously I am only speculating, but i cant believe everyone knew but the people she lived with? Unless they are super clueless, which I doubt, they would of had to know she went out drinking, partying and such...sex often comes with these things. I thought I read they told her to clean up her blood and saw her carrying out a bloody towel? I never saw a monthly that serious EXCEPT after you have a baby!
 
Even leaving aside the woman and her disputed ability/disability, the parents story is all kinds of hinky to me, and means I'm not accepting the version of them being kindly but clueless.

They claim she can't even write, turns out she's active on social media and writing dating profiles.

Claim she has no idea about pregnancy or that dumping a baby to die is wrong, yet she was aware that her parents wouldn't approve and 'apparently' took action over a considerable period of time to hide it. She admits she put the baby there to die, aware that lack of care, in a dumpster = death, in an attempt to "solve her problem". There's logic there and a full awareness of the consequences of her actions, just a lack of concern for anyone but herself.

Claim they had no idea she was pregnant, then these photos that show an undeniable baby bump and were posted on social media that at least some of her family likely had access to, appear.

Her friends were well aware she was pregnant, and if she was as incapable as the parents are claiming she is, none of her friends would have gone to her parents to inform them? for Alicia's sake? Her parents never saw the baby bump as Alicia was dressed in skin tight clothes on her way out partying?

They claim she's unable to take care of herself in the most basic ways, incapable of processing death, or the consequences, despite her hiding all of those things in a clear demonstration that she knows she's in the wrong, yet she maintains a full time job, a car, and an active social life? Never received a diagnosis? Parents never pushed for extra help for her besides apparently at school?

Blood all over the bathroom, yet mum helps clean up as if it's just a smear from a period? I've had some terrible periods in my time, but it's pretty hard to mistake the wreckage after birth to a period. Where was the baby and the afterbirth while clean up was going on? The girl snuck the baby into her bedroom, then back to the bathroom when she was at work the next day? It doesn't make sense.

Baby was in the house for a day, tubes clear enough to breathe all that time, but they never heard her cry? Or used that bathroom?

There is more, but that's enough to be going on with. One of those things along wouldn't be enough to convince me, but all of them put together is too much to ignore.

I'd like to know what her full time job actually is. They've been quiet about that. I'd also like to know just how big this house is, and how many bathrooms they seem to have.
 
I have a daughter who was in special ed all through elementary, middle and high schools. She earned a Special Education Certificate at graduation. She had a very hard time finding a job with her certificate. She finally found a job as a security guard and has been doing this work full time for ten yrs now. She had to take the driving test at DMV orally due to her reading/reading comprehension skills. She drives and is a very good driver. She is a single parent of a nine yr old son. She is a good mom. She doesn't always make the right decisions...but she learns from them...often times the hard way...like we all did. Just wanted to share this example as this girl seems to be functioning at the same level as my daughter in many ways.
 
I find it hard to believe her parents did not know. She is thin every where BUT her belly! She even has that rock hard popped out belly button!
 
I wonder if they have started looking into who the father might be at this point. And, if him or his family will be looking into caring for Baby Hope.
 
Alicia's bail hearing scheduled for Mon. was postponed until Oct. 20th to allow time for both sides to review evidence & determine competency. She is next due in court Oct. 16th to schedule her preliminary hearing. The article below was surprisingly informative & actually answered a few questions we've all had, such as:
- It was a convenience store clerk who Alicia told her baby's due date (I don't think we had a source for the due date comment)
- Alicia worked for a car rental agency (I had guessed Walmart?)
- We still don't have a name for the baby daddy (bc neither does Alicia!)
- MRI showed that the baby did suffer 'mild brain damage' & is at 'increased risk for developmental problems' (da fuk:(:mad:!)


Bail hearing about baby in trash bin is delayed to allow tests about mom’s competency
hqdefault.jpg

A Monday bail hearing... was postponed at the request of her attorneys, who want time to have her evaluated for possible medical issues, mental health concerns or developmental disabilities.
Another bail hearing... was set for Oct. 20. And on Oct. 16, Englert will appear in court to schedule a preliminary hearing.
[...]

According to court documents, Englert allegedly admitted to police that she gave birth to the baby in the bathroom of her Kearns home. She wrapped the infant in a towel, left her on the floor, and went to bed, according to charges. The next day, Monday, she went to work, leaving the child wrapped in the towel on the floor.

After she returned from work, Englert could see the infant was still alive because her fingers were moving, charging documents state.

The following morning — two days after the child’s birth — she put the baby in her neighbor’s garbage can at about 5:45 a.m.

"I don’t want it," Englert allegedly told police, adding she didn’t know she was pregnant until the day she delivered the child.
[...]
But a convenience-store clerk later told police that Englert often came to the store nearby her home and said she had asked Englert in late July about her pregnancy.
The clerk said Englert said she was due in August.

Unified Police officials say they have found no medical evidence that Englert who graduated high school, maintains social media accounts and held a job with a car rental agency — is mentally incompetent.
[...]

Police said Englert does not know who fathered the baby.
[...]

The newborn girl had low body core temperature, a blood-borne infection and was covered in feces when she arrived at the hospital, according to court records. Joanne Beachy, a neonatal intensive-care physician at Primary Children’s Hospital, told police that an MRI showed that the baby suffered a mild brain injury due to lack of oxygen, but there was no permanent brain damage. However, the doctor said that because of the medical conditions the child suffered after birth, she is at an increased risk for developmental problems.
http://m.sltrib.com/sltrib/mobile3/58492761-219/englert-baby-police-care.html.csp
 
I stll think Alicia Englert needs to be beat with a stick. She's a manipulitive bitch, who's riding the fact that someone somewhere thinks she's retarded, when obviously she's not.

*I know the "R" word is not PC but it applies to her!
 
her attorneys, who want time to have her evaluated for possible medical issues, mental health concerns or developmental disabilities.
This is bullshit. Every fucking word of it. She isn't "delayed", "disabled" or fucking retarded (I'm with @cubby using that word here). There has not been any diagnosis and ffs she was holding a job. Not sheltered employment but an actual fucking job. There is no mention of sheltered employment or help at work.

The only "incompetence" about her is that she's incompetent as a murderer and as a decent fucking human being.
 
Daaaaammmmmmnnnn.
Sounds like Maury needs to offer Alicia his assistance in finding out who the father of her baby is. Bitch wasn't to stupid to know how to ride a dick apparently just to lazy to deal with the consequences or even avoid said consequences.
And don't get me started on the baby being found covered in feces. Wtf is that about?
 
Baby covered in feces is because she wrapped her in a nasty ass towel left her for at least 24 hours to sit there on the floor in her room (how her family didn't hear her crying, I don't know) then threw her in a garbage can to finish dying. Babies poo even if they haven't actually been fed and when they are not wearing any clothes much less a diaper then it tends to travel all over. It can travel all over even with the diaper. I don't know why this one makes me so much madder than all the others, but it does. I want Baby Hope to be able to thumb her nose at this bitch of a birth vessel one day.
 
Mom Accused Of Dumping Her Newborn In Trash Allowed A Goodbye Visit
[...]
judge is allowing a goodbye visit for a Utah woman accused of dumping her newborn in a trash can to die.
[...]
will have one supervised 90-minute visit with the now 3-month-old baby, Judge Elizabeth Hruby-Mills decided during a conference in her chambers
[...]
Prosecutor Robert Parrish said he opposed the visit because
[...]
never had a relationship with the child. The girl is in the process of being adopted by another family after the 23-year-old woman waived her parental rights a few weeks ago.

"I'm pretty sure Alicia said goodbye to the baby when she put the baby in the neighbor's trash can,"
[...]
Defense attorney Weyher Fulkerson said in a statement the case is complicated and very sad, and the visit is separate from the criminal proceedings.
[...]
said it was granted as an exception to a no-contact order in the case.

Englert's parents said they have decided not to seek custody of the baby girl, and plan to attend the visit scheduled for
[...]
to say goodbye.

Robert and Tammy Englert said
[...]
through their attorney that the meeting will bring them some closure.
[...]
Prosecutors say the baby would have died if she hadn't been found by a neighbor who thought she heard a purring cat. The girl was inside a trash can under bags of garbage and suffering from hypothermia, respiratory distress and a blood-borne infection.

She was flown to a hospital and recovered after she was placed on a ventilator.
[...]
said Tuesday the baby is doing well.

Englert faces an attempted murder charge in the case, and a review is expected to determine whether she's mentally competent to stand trial. She was released on bail in October.
[....]
Englert faces up to life in prison.
[...]
has said she has a learning disability, didn't know she was pregnant and couldn't understand why what she did was wrong.

Elizabeth Sollis, spokeswoman for the Utah Division of Child and Family Services, said goodbye visits are fairly common for parents whose rights are terminated after their children are taken into state custody.
[...]
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/09/mom-dumped-newborn-goodbye_n_6298478.html?utm_hp_ref=crime
 
Selfish little cunt doesn't deserve even one second with that precious baby that she threw away like garbage, she certainly doesn't deserve 90-minutes to "say good-bye". Fuck that, she said her good-bye when she threw her away, her plan just fell apart.
 
You are correct about this point, I did use the term "severely disabled" instead of "severe learning disabled" when captioning pictures of Alicia-- and I truly apologize if I offended anybody by being insensitive. I should have understood that there is a difference between the 2 diagnosis.
If you notice, just before the 'partying' pictures of Alicia were released, I had posted an interview with her parents where
Link

If we accept her parents assertion that Alicia cannot understand that killing a baby is wrong, then she must be functioning on an extremely low mental level. I felt sympathy for her, until...the pictures came out, along with the descriptions of Alicia from her friends-- she's driving, partying, drinking while pregnant, telling people on FB her baby's due date!

Hmmm...writing FB posts AND understanding concepts like 'due dates'?!?! Doesn't sound AT ALL like the person her parents had portrayed- I felt duped & angry.

So when I captioned those pictures as "severely disabled" Alicia Englert taking selfies & driving", I did it with a tinge of sarcasm & frustration. And until they prove in court that she truly DID NOT understand that attempting to kill her baby was WRONG, then I'm going to save my sympathy for the real victim in this case--
Baby Hope!
I can understand why everyone wants to blame & judge Alicia right niw after seeing the photos. However, did you really pay attention to the selfies? She's taking pics of the mirror! Even with the digital camera you can clearly see that she just took a pic of the mirror, so she really doesn't know how to take a selfie. As for the partying, I've seen A LOT of devementally disabled people get used/taken advantage of. Those people in the pics were probably hanging out with her because she was buying the booze & sadly she thinks they're her friends. It happens day in & day out. Also, it's very plausible for her not to have known she was pregnant, maybe she didn't understand the body changes because nobody explained those things to her in SPECIAL ED! Also, I'm sure she was sheltered @ home because of her condition & her parents may have believed they would never need to have "the talk". She may not have had a regular cycle or didn't notice it stopped. Some women have no symptoms until labor, hence the TV series "I never knew I was pregnant". I'm just saying by her appearance (almost almond shaped eyes & strange poses), mirror selfies, incriminating statements to police & well documented history of mental issues don't rush to judgement until everything comes out. Oh, one more thing, yes, DD & LD people can drive & work according to their skill set. She worked @ a rental car agency. That doesn't mean that she's @ the front of the house doing computer work, contracts & taking money!! She's probably in the back cleaning the cars or putting those paper floor mats in them. This is an equal opportunity nation & if companies continually denied employment to disabled people the ADA & ACLU would be all over them. Let the justice system do its job before the entire jury pool is tainted please people, what if this was your daughter or sister?
 
How could she have not known she was pregnant yet posted on Facebook when she was due??

You raise some good points but seem to assume a lot that puts the story in her favor.

Do you know her??
 
I can understand why everyone wants to blame & judge Alicia right niw after seeing the photos. However, did you really pay attention to the selfies? She's taking pics of the mirror! Even with the digital camera you can clearly see that she just took a pic of the mirror, so she really doesn't know how to take a selfie. As for the partying, I've seen A LOT of devementally disabled people get used/taken advantage of. Those people in the pics were probably hanging out with her because she was buying the booze & sadly she thinks they're her friends. It happens day in & day out. Also, it's very plausible for her not to have known she was pregnant, maybe she didn't understand the body changes because nobody explained those things to her in SPECIAL ED! Also, I'm sure she was sheltered @ home because of her condition & her parents may have believed they would never need to have "the talk". She may not have had a regular cycle or didn't notice it stopped. Some women have no symptoms until labor, hence the TV series "I never knew I was pregnant". I'm just saying by her appearance (almost almond shaped eyes & strange poses), mirror selfies, incriminating statements to police & well documented history of mental issues don't rush to judgement until everything comes out. Oh, one more thing, yes, DD & LD people can drive & work according to their skill set. She worked @ a rental car agency. That doesn't mean that she's @ the front of the house doing computer work, contracts & taking money!! She's probably in the back cleaning the cars or putting those paper floor mats in them. This is an equal opportunity nation & if companies continually denied employment to disabled people the ADA & ACLU would be all over them. Let the justice system do its job before the entire jury pool is tainted please people, what if this was your daughter or sister?

I've worked with intellectually disabled adults for 27 yrs and I applaud your response. It is so true and I hope others can see the truth in it. I have a few people in the program I manage that attend the program for half a day and work out in the community doing jobs to earn pay and contribute to society. Some of them only earn piecemeal. What I mean by that is this...say the position for the average person who can do 100 pieces an hour starts at 12.00 an hour...say one of our folks can do that job and only do 10 in an hour. Their pay is based on the 10 they did for that hour. So their paycheck doesn't reflect that 12.00 an hour but only on the ten pieces they completed. I hope I wrote that in a way that u all can understand. There are other's that are able to work and drive etc...
 
@Mindy Wilson I noticed u didn't address one big thing.
If u don't know you're pregnant, how do u nail your due date? She got it right, so....
 
Last edited:
The judge granted her a "goodbye" visit...and these are not uncommon with ATTEMPTED MURDERERS who give up their parental rights??? Just. Effing. Thud. :dead:



And, this is my issue. I'm not trying to be rude, but IDGAF if she was Steven Hawking's daughter, or her IQ matched my shoe size. Some of the these sorry-assed judges just leave me :eek: :wtf: :rage:.
 
vgq8i1.gif


Bitch knew she was pregnant. She told her friends she was, she put a due date up as a status on her fb, and she was noticebly pregnant. Not fat. I've birthed five kids. That was a fucking pregnant girl. Add to the fact an ALIVE child came out of her vagina and she threw it away like a turd. If she's so handicapped in the head that an alive wiggling baby doesn't prove to her she was a MOTHER now she needs to be institutionalized and shame on her parents for not realizing this.

Although I think she just didn't care. And don't even bring up I Didn't Know I Was Pregnant. While it is possible to go a whole nine months without realizing your gestating the BABY in the bathroom proved they were. And none of those chicks threw the kid away.

Gtfo with this nonsense.
 
Let the justice system do its job before the entire jury pool is tainted please people, what if this was your daughter or sister?
If this was my daughter or sister, I'd kick her fucking ass.

I couldn't even begin to respond to the rest of that.

Oh yeah, since good ol' Gram and Gramps decided not to seek custody, what happened to all that money they collected?
 
Last edited:
Back
Top