Oregon Drops Charges Against Babysitter Who Beat Infant Due To Bullshit Law On The Books

[Athena]

I guess I should have been clearer, what I meant was: doesn't the fact that he admitted it make the inability of the infant to verbalize the pain moot? It's a crime to smack a baby. He admitted it. Doesn't that automatically make it battery of some sort? Or can I just walk around smacking infants with no repercussions since they can't verbalize the pain? (The snark isn't directed at you, but at my own fine County...)

No, it's not a crime to smack a baby. That's the point; it only becomes a crime when the victim experiences substantial pain as a result. And, since the baby can't articulate that pain, the physicality isn't a crime.

One of the articles linked to mentioned the case of a teen (I think?) who had been whipped with cords (I think?) by her mother. Even though the damaged caused was visible in the form of welts, they couldn't prosecute, because when asked, the victim stated ruggedly and unemotionally that it hadn't hurt because she was used to getting whipped.

This just adds to the list of reasons for which I'd like to see physical discipline banned. It being legal to hit kids for any reason opens up complications like this. If it were illegal to hit a child, period, these parents wouldn't be experiencing this horror. The fucked up interpretations and rulings that created the loophole were to protect spanking rights.

 

[cubby]

I'd like to see the exact same injuries and bruises and scrapes happen to the idiots that come up with this "law", see what they say about how it did or did not hurt. That law is unbelievable, except that it does exists.

 

[MissLiz]

I'd like to see the exact same injuries and bruises and scrapes happen to the idiots that come up with this "law", see what they say about how it did or did not hurt. That law is unbelievable, except that it does exists.

These idiots or their own kids. Bet it would change reeeeeal fast then.

 

[cubby]

I was thinking, I know smell the sawdust burning, but what if they killed the baby, or anyone else for that matter, how would that work then, they can't articulated how bad it hurt since, you know, they're dead, would they say they can't prosecute since they can't talk?

I'm just trying to highlight how stupid this is.

 

[Abroad]

Me neither. It just irks me that they went on a "date night" of all reasons. However I appreciate they hired a baby sitter considered a close friend whom they trusted, so I can't blame the couple for that @sarahdownunder . Just the date night thing..tsk tsk

I babysat a colicky child for a friend and her husband, so they could go to the cinema together for the first time in several months. Steeled myself that he would probably scream from they left til they returned again, so when he actually didn't scream for about twenty minutes it was a major success from my point of view.

They were gone for about three and a half hours and the hour and a half they spent in the cinema was the first time they had both slept at once for ages.......

 

[AngelFire]

Married people can have different last names. Welcome to 2016.

I have been married for over 22 years and I still held on to my maiden name. But don't tell Jesus.

 

[DivineRAiN]

It's because it's not a crime unless the victim experienced "substantial pain", and a ruling determined the mere presence of bruises or welts was not enough to assume physical pain. It boils down to the child not being able to articulate the pain. Pretty glaring loophole in the law, and hopefully, this event garners enough attention to get that hole closed.

I wonder how cps workers can even try to do their job if what was done to this baby isn't even a crime. And I wonder what the hell they consider "substantial pain"... if this child was verbal, maybe the pain just wasn't substantial enough to be considered child abuse. Come back when the child has broken bones, burns, almost beaten to death, then we'll call it child abuse? Jeez, I guess if this baby did have broken bones, burns it still wouldn't be considered a crime. This shit is pissing me off the more I think about it

 

[cubby]

But don't tell Jesus.

I don't think Jesus cares, he's got a lot on his mind here lately y:

 

[Athena]

Again, not arguing with you Athena, I just am perplexed by the contradictions in the law. I found this. It would seem to me to cover it just because the child wasn't bruised when the parents left and was bruised when they returned:
"§ 163.160¹
Assault in the fourth degree
(1)A person commits the crime of assault in the fourth degree if the person:

(a)Intentionally, knowingly or recklessly causes physical injury to another;"

Wouldn't physical injury include bruising, whether the infliction of those bruises caused pain or not? The injury is clearly visible, right? I am just seeing work arounds here that Washington County could have pursued had they not gone down this road.

I know you're not being argumentative. This is perplexing and infuriating legal nonsense, and I'm happy to work through it with you.

"Physical injury" is the term that is linked with "substantial pain". This is Oregon's adopted definition for "physical injury", and it is quite restrictive from a legal perspective: "impairment of physical condition or substantial pain."

You compare this with Washington's adopted definition for "physical injury": "physical pain or injury, illness, or an impairment of physical condition."

You see there is no "substantial" qualifier, and they reiterated "injury" in the definition, which makes it much more open to broad interpretation that will cover all manifestations of injury.

Oregon appeals courts have ruled that bruises, welts and other evidence of minor injury does not qualify for the assumption of "substantial pain" like a knife wound or gunshot would. So, unless the victim can report "substantial pain" as being associated with the bruises, welts, etc., prosecutors can't go anywhere with it.

Oregon needs a new definition for "physical injury".

 

[Jeania]

I wonder how cps workers can even try to do their job if what was done to this baby isn't even a crime. And I wonder what the hell they consider "substantial pain"... if this child was verbal, maybe the pain just wasn't substantial enough to be considered child abuse. Come back when the child has broken bones, burns, almost beaten to death, then we'll call it child abuse? Jeez, I guess if this baby did have broken bones, burns it still wouldn't be considered a crime. This shit is pissing me off the more I think about it

That actually brings up a valid viewpoint (somewhat off-topic). Besides how rough of conditions that cps deal with at times; when there is a real crime, sometimes their hands are tied. That probably has a fair amount to do with the burnout you see in the system.

 

[Sejanus]

A. Get a nannycam.
B. live in a state with less shitty laws.
C. name the babysitter publicaly.

 

[kennasmom]

Me neither. It just irks me that they went on a "date night" of all reasons. However I appreciate they hired a baby sitter considered a close friend whom they trusted, so I can't blame the couple for that @sarahdownunder . Just the date night thing..tsk tsk

The fuck?

 

[MissLiz]

The fuck?

That seems to be the general response when she posts.. don't fret, you're not alone.

 

[sarahdownunder]

Me neither. It just irks me that they went on a "date night" of all reasons. However I appreciate they hired a baby sitter considered a close friend whom they trusted, so I can't blame the couple for that @sarahdownunder . Just the date night thing..tsk tsk

The reason why I jumped on your initial comment, Strity is because I feel, that with the way you've worded it, that you're insinuating there is both blame to the parents for leaving the baby with a sitter - and judging the parents for having a date night.

Parents can have a night off. If they'd left the baby with a sitter, because of a family emergency or some other emergency situation, would you have still made that comment?

I guess, my way of thinking is that a) its not logical to expect a parent to devote themselves 1000% to a baby without exception, regardless of whether the reason is to have a date night, or something more drastic and b) I felt that you were insinuating that the parents owe at least some culpability for this situation simply because they took a couple of hours off for themselves, away from their baby, who they felt was in the safe arms of someone trustworthy.

I'm not ranting at you - just pointing out my difference of opinion to you.

 

[Francyne32]

I understand that everyone is different, and yes, you should be able to research and find a safe babysitter to watch your children. Unfortunately those times have long since passed when you could safely do that. My baby, who is now 4, has NEVER been left alone with any member of my family except my parents and my grandmother, who lives with me. No aunts, no uncles, no FRIENDS. Now it's not because I have a bad family or untrustworthy friends, I have a wonderful small family that would die for her.... but my child is my life and I'll be damned if I take the chance and have anything happen to her. Not that I think anyone I surround myself with is capable of anything malicious. But because NO one watches your child like you do! Period. Accidents happen... Yes, but if it's going to happen it's going to happen when mommy is there. Not fucking around with my girl. Now I do feel terrible for people that have children and don't have anyone around. But, I'm sorry to say, they should have considered that before they decided not to take birth control or wear a condom. Having a child is more then just feeding, clothing, being financially able to keep a roof over their head, loving them , etc. it's all the little shit that makes it hard too!

 

[Sevens My Charm]

I understand that everyone is different, and yes, you should be able to research and find a safe babysitter to watch your children. Unfortunately those times have long since passed when you could safely do that. My baby, who is now 4, has NEVER been left alone with any member of my family except my parents and my grandmother, who lives with me. No aunts, no uncles, no FRIENDS. Now it's not because I have a bad family or untrustworthy friends, I have a wonderful small family that would die for her.... but my child is my life and I'll be damned if I take the chance and have anything happen to her. Not that I think anyone I surround myself with is capable of anything malicious. But because NO one watches your child like you do! Period. Accidents happen... Yes, but if it's going to happen it's going to happen when mommy is there. Not fucking around with my girl. Now I do feel terrible for people that have children and don't have anyone around. But, I'm sorry to say, they should have considered that before they decided not to take birth control or wear a condom. Having a child is more then just feeding, clothing, being financially able to keep a roof over their head, loving them , etc. it's all the little shit that makes it hard too!

And the ones who are widows or found themselves in situations after they had children. I am happy your bubble exist for you.

 

[Francyne32]

And the ones who are widows or found themselves in situations after they had children. I am happy your bubble exist for you.

That's why I said I know everyone is different. No bubble... Trust me. Just don't trust anyone, period.
[doublepost=1464058543,1464058487][/doublepost]

That's why I said I know everyone is different. No bubble... Trust me. Just don't trust anyone, period.

And there are reasons for that. I'm a single mom. So trust me, I've had to sacrifice more then you know to do what I do for my child.

 

[kennasmom]

To those who have never had a sitter. You are not doing it for the benefit of your kids, thats bullshit and you know it. Its for you. To deny your kid an early opportunity to learn and bond with someone other than you once in a while is selfish. Go ahead and pretend that people are waiting around every corner just hoping for a chance to kill your kid. Just wait until your kid has to deal with someone elses personality and rules.

Now I do feel terrible for people that have children and don't have anyone around. But, I'm sorry to say, they should have considered that before they decided not to take birth control or wear a condom.

I dont know why the fuck you feel bad for me? Save that for someone who needs your pity, cause it aint me. And to say my son shouldn't be here because he has had a sitter at times? Fuck off with that. I think if you really believe that no one in this world is capable of keeping your kid safe except for you, than you should have never had kids.

 

[Francyne32]

Um your not that important to direct my statement at you. Where do you get off thinking I was. Don't know you or care too. News flash asshole: wasn't about you! Was about people who don't take everything into consideration when having kids! And never said no one is capable of keeping my kid safe, before you comment you should actually READ what others say. Now you just sound illiterate and like a lonely sad bitch. Have a nice night

Edited to remove racial slurs.

 

[kennasmom]

Now I do feel terrible for people that have children and don't have anyone around. But, I'm sorry to say, they should have considered that before they decided not to take birth control or wear a condom.

Um your not that important to direct my statement at you. Where do you get off thinking I was.

So...Since I had my son without anyone around, does your statement not pertain to me? If not than who was it directed to?

Was about white trash and niggars

Wow, your kid will be just fine.

 

[Sevens My Charm]

I don't think most of us here need a lecture on trust- we (majority) have trust issues that are unique and some of us have come to acquire personal safety habits and items. Mine is Thor. I am going to go with it's my mood and not another oddity.

Edit: You're on crack or something. I am far from illiterate or lonely but you are looking like that trash you talk about.

@strity1994 on roids .. so sad

 

[Francyne32]

So...Since I had my son without anyone around, does your statement not pertain to me? If not than who was it directed to?


Wow, your kid will be just fine.

I agree. Thank you
[doublepost=1464065189,1464065088][/doublepost]

I don't think most of us here need a lecture on trust- we (majority) have trust issues that are unique and some of us have come to acquire personal safety habits and items. Mine is Thor. I am going to go with it's my mood and not another oddity.

Edit: You're on crack or something. I am far from illiterate or lonely but you are looking like that trash you talk about.

@strity1994 on roids .. so sad

No sweetheart. I'm not the one who went and took something directed at the person in the ARTICLE and got all butt hurt. Night.

 

[lithiumgirl]

They say Jacob was covered in bruises the next morning and they reported the incident to police.

I wonder if they had taken him to a hospital right away if a medical report would have been

useful in documenting the injuries and pain thresholds. This is me thinking it might have made

a difference. Police respond differently when hospitals call them about abuse.
[doublepost=1464066469,1464065487][/doublepost]

To deny your kid an early opportunity to learn and bond with someone other than you once in a while is selfish

That's insane.

 

[Sevens My Charm]

@Francyne32 maybe as you keep reading articles and get to personally know other members and their history- without pissing them off with close-minded cult shit spewing you will enjoy the DD more?

 

[Francyne32]

@Francyne32 maybe as you keep reading articles and get to personally know other members and their history- without pissing them off with close-minded cult shit spewing you will enjoy the DD more?

It's not close minded, it's my opinion. I've come to it from reading things that happen in the real world. That is what this is all about anyway, Not you/me but to raise awareness:shrug:. I specifically stated "I know everyone is different" at the very beginning. It's not my fault that you decided to skip past that part or to take something so personally, which I'm sorry you did. But your first response came of as attacking to me for the way I do things with my kid. Also the opinion I have of most that I see on here that have children. I don't even know you or your situation. so of course it wouldn't be directed at you. Piss people off or not, it's the Internet. Unfortunately, It's going to happen. Everyone has different ideas. Anyway, nice to meet you. (I wasn't being sarcastic )

 

[Athena]

I specifically stated "I know everyone is different" at the very beginning.

Francyne, a statement like "I know everyone is different" does not magically unburden those who might take offense to the following opinion. That's kind of like saying, "No offense, but you're stupid." "No offense" doesn't actually do anything.

You have a rather draconian opinion of parental responsibility, and you went so far as to say that individuals who don't have the benefit of immediate family around to watch their children shouldn't have had children. That's going to be a fairly offensive statement to the dozens of mothers and fathers here who have to occasionally rely on non-familial child care.

Of course, you're under no obligation to play nice or spare people offense, but should you choose not to, let's not go shifting the blame.

 

[eracsurfer]

@Athena - Thank you for putting that MUCH better than I would have.

It's kind of like "Bless her/his/your/their heart" down south. Anything that follows that statement is going to be a slam on the person or group. But, the person saying it expects to get a pass. The one I hear from the wife is "Not to be rude but...", which is usually followed by some statement that has me side eyeing her so hard it hurts.

I also lost any interest in trying to empathize with @Francyne32 as soon as they dropped the racial slur. In my book, once that card is dealt, it can't be hidden back in the deck.

 

[Athena]

@Athena - Thank you for putting that MUCH better than I would have.

It's kind of like "Bless her/his/your/their heart" down south. Anything that follows that statement is going to be a slam on the person or group. But, the person saying it expects to get a pass. The one I hear from the wife is "Not to be rude but...", which is usually followed by some statement that has me side eyeing her so hard it hurts.

Exactly. Mine is, "With all due respect..." but I take great conscious care to follow it up with something that illustrates the respect due. Contemptuous statements are not made any less so by a disclaimer. And, we all know me, I can make some offensive comments sometimes.

But I own that shit.

I also lost any interest in trying to empathize with @Francyne32 as soon as they dropped the racial slur. In my book, once that card is dealt, it can't be hidden back in the deck.

Welp, I respect that, but as it happens, I did reach out to Francyne to explain the moderation activities, and she suggested that, in her region, that particular term (which was purposefully misspelled) is used to denote low-rent members of any ethnic class. And, to be fair, she does appear to be a pretty equal-opportunity hater. But she will steer clear of using that term in the future.

 

[BostonBurns]

Me neither. It just irks me that they went on a "date night" of all reasons. However I appreciate they hired a baby sitter considered a close friend whom they trusted, so I can't blame the couple for that @sarahdownunder . Just the date night thing..tsk tsk

Weather you have 1 child or 5, they are stressful and time consuming, and that's fine because it's what responsible people signed up for when they decided to have a kid.

Since the stone age til about the last 40 or 50 years, raising children was more of a communal effort, with extended family or other close friends or neighbors more available to lend a helping hand. This simply isn't the case anymore and there's nothing wrong with hiring a sitter to get away for some quiet adult time. The suggestion that the parents are to blamenin this case is completely unfounded, but I'm not surprised considering the source.
[doublepost=1464104564,1464103567][/doublepost]

I understand that everyone is different, and yes, you should be able to research and find a safe babysitter to watch your children. Unfortunately those times have long since passed when you could safely do that. My baby, who is now 4, has NEVER been left alone with any member of my family except my parents and my grandmother, who lives with me. No aunts, no uncles, no FRIENDS. Now it's not because I have a bad family or untrustworthy friends, I have a wonderful small family that would die for her.... but my child is my life and I'll be damned if I take the chance and have anything happen to her. Not that I think anyone I surround myself with is capable of anything malicious. But because NO one watches your child like you do! Period. Accidents happen... Yes, but if it's going to happen it's going to happen when mommy is there. Not fucking around with my girl. Now I do feel terrible for people that have children and don't have anyone around. But, I'm sorry to say, they should have considered that before they decided not to take birth control or wear a condom. Having a child is more then just feeding, clothing, being financially able to keep a roof over their head, loving them , etc. it's all the little shit that makes it hard too!

Meh, I'm willing to bet most of the girls who watch my kids are much more attentive to what they're doing than my wife and I are, because we simply let them play and not worry about helicoptering over them.

It's been well-documented that as long as you provide the necessities and unconditional love, everything else doesn't matter, nor does it produce a better, smarter or more well-adjusted kid.

 

[Sevens My Charm]

Francyne, a statement like "I know everyone is different" does not magically unburden those who might take offense to the following opinion. That's kind of like saying, "No offense, but you're stupid." "No offense" doesn't actually do anything.

You have a rather draconian opinion of parental responsibility, and you went so far as to say that individuals who don't have the benefit of immediate family around to watch their children shouldn't have had children. That's going to be a fairly offensive statement to the dozens of mothers and fathers here who have to occasionally rely on non-familial child care.

Of course, you're under no obligation to play nice or spare people offense, but should you choose not to, let's not go shifting the blame.

Thank you @Athena ♡♡♡