13yr Olds Abigail 'abby' Williams & Liberty 'libby' German Found Dead In Indiana

[TaupinJohn]

[QUOTE
The former NFL player and Colts owner popped it over the top might be the clincher, I was going to post this as soon as it came out but was distracted when I came in here.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/nfl-player-raises-reward-catch-monster-teen-girls/story?id=45882414[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I got so lost I'd forget what thread I was in, then go, "Hang in there, something relevant has gotta turn up sooner or later!"
It is, as McAfee said, "a life-changing amount of money." I can't imagine, though, not turning someone in for 100K but doing it at 200K. Bearing in mind that the person you're protecting has murdered two young girls who had nobody protecting them. Ugh.


Also:

Kind of pitiful, really. I mean it's good of them to write it, it's just... even the writing style is so -- almost without emotion, stoic. I know they want the killer caught. But I also know the lack of relief it'll bring as in, "But she's still gone." Seems they know that, too. Absolutely heartbreaking.

 

[Kseniya]

@Kseniya, Then PLEASE get some READING GLASSES. It's better to use italics for emphasis. If you are going to post relentlessly on this thread, learn how to use the site tools to your advantage.
I'm done with this thread. I set up a google alert for updates.

Where is the tool sites ?
[doublepost=1488768228,1488767888][/doublepost]I had a thought last night about the suspect, how did he know the girls had a day off from school that Monday, Feb. 13thl? It was a snow day they were using up. I have grandchildren and I never know when they have a day off, unless I see the kids in my neighborhood outside playing, I'd never know. So how did he know? I don't believe he chanced upon them on the bridge, that is too uncanny of a coincidence. I think he contacted them via social media, to be there at the exact time were on the bridge
[doublepost=1488768852][/doublepost]Ok, if he knew the kids were off of school that day for a snow day that they were making use of, he must be from there, or he was visiting someone there, because someone from out of town would not have known this. If he was visiting someone in Delphi, maybe the person hhad children, maybe even knew the girls.

 

[TaupinJohn]

You type in a reasonable comment pertaining to the story, kind of hoping against hope that, now that the pool isn't as full, it will be met with, I don't know, SOMEthing relevant, of (hope of hopes!) something useful regarding this pretty-damned-serious kind of story, and the first words you read in way of a reply are:
"Where is the tool sites ?"



Dude.
Dude I don't even know where they is. Not anymore. But when ya find 'em, throw me a vice to put my head into because that couldn't hurt as much as THIS THREAD has already made it hurt!

At this point, believing it's all just ing. Because nobody on the PLANET, man. NOBODY.

 

[golanvern]

Investigation into murder of Carroll County teens heads into day 17

http://wishtv.com/2017/03/03/investigation-into-murder-of-carroll-county-teens-heads-into-day-17/

Now day 19/

I keep coming here with the expectant hope to find that there has been a break in the case. out:

I'm hearing you. Even though I too have a google alert set up for this story, I find myself coming back to check this thread every time there's a post. Need to stop that as it's frustrating me to no end.

I'm quite hoping that the authorities already have a prime and are just crossing Ts and dotting Is before he/they are pulled in.

Is this a death penalty state that actually exercises that penalty?

 

[TaupinJohn]

I'm hearing you. Even though I too have a google alert set up for this story, I find myself coming back to check this thread every time there's a post. Need to stop that as it's frustrating me to no end.

I'm quite hoping that the authorities already have a prime and are just crossing Ts and dotting Is before he/they are pulled in.

Is this a death penalty state that actually exercises that penalty?

Yes to the former:
A person found guilty of murder will receive one of three (3) sentences:
(1) Life imprisonment/no possibility of parole
(2) Between 45 and 65 years (It's usually set at fifty-five (55) years plus $10,000 fine, or
(3) Death.

**I got ^^that^^ information from: http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/dplaw.htm

As far as the latter? 19 convicted murderers have been executed in Indiana since 1977 (since '77 -- soooo 40 years ago?)
Two have committed suicide awaiting execution, and two have died of natural causes (oh for God's sake) awaiting execution.
Eye-catching was that, breathing our air are condemned men who committed murders in 1982 (35 years ago, 1984 (33 years ago), and 1987 (30 years ago.)

Can you imagine a family waiting 35 years to see justice happen for their loved one? And no scheduled DOE that's listed!

With people killing themselves and dying of old age over there as they "await sentencing" I think Indiana is very much a state who talks the talk but doesn't necessarily walk the walk. Nothing against Indiana, I've never been there. But if you want the death penalty in a state that doesn't carry it out so often, then you want Indiana.

**I got ^^that^^ information (on death row inmates, etc.) from http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/rownew.htm

The last execution in Indiana was on June 15, 2007. Michael Lambert was executed by lethal injection after being sentenced to death in 1992 for the murder of a Muncie police officer.
***********************************************

Well, you were right to ask that question in two parts. Obviously, just because a state "has" the Death Penalty doesn't mean it'll enforce it in anything like a timely manner.
There's a 79-year-old man who's been on the Row for 30+ years, and they've got no Date of Execution still.:YOW:

Damn, Indiana, at least LOOK LIKE YOU'RE trying to carry out their sentences!:shrug:

Or save up all your sharpest needles and freshest drug supplies for the person(s) responsible for this. Having just read the entire Indiana Death Penalty Laws and Codes I see no reason he won't be eligible, and in fact receive, it if he's found guilty of these murders.

Sorry for the long answer, but this time I share my shame with those stats, etc. Hey, at least I'm blaming someone else now! That's progress, right?

 

[Kseniya]

I can almost see mothers turning in sons for a quarter of million dollars. So it's no stretch to think a casual acquaintance wouldn't have any problem at all. I'll bet there's a bunch of people wishing they know who this creeper is, hopefully someone gets the reward and soon.

How many days now? Over 17, and $211,000 reward? I think he slipped through their fingers like all these serial killers seem to do. Hate to say it, but he's probably moved on to another state by now.
[doublepost=1488853005,1488852006][/doublepost]

es to the former:
A person found guilty of murder will receive one of three (3) sentences:
(1) Life imprisonment/no possibility of parole
(2) Between 45 and 65 years (It's usually set at fifty-five (55) years plus $10,000 fine, or
(3) Death.

And of course there will be "aggravating circumstances" - -SEE: INDIANA CODE
Sec. 9. (a) The state may seek either a death sentence or a sentence of life imprisonment without parole for murder by alleging, the existence of at least one (1) of the aggravating circumstances listed in subsection (b).  
(b) The aggravating circumstances are as follows: - -(Which Will No Doubt Include
1) The defendant committed the murder(s) by intentionally killing the victim(s) while committing or attempting to commit any of the following:
C) Child molesting (IC 35-42-4-3).- -(IC stands for Indiana Code)
(E) Kidnapping (IC 35-42-3-2).
(F) Rape (IC 35-42-4-1).
(11) The defendant:
(A) burned, mutilated, or tortured the victim;  or
(12) The victim of the murder was less than twelve (12) years of age

etc etc etc
- See more at: http://codes.findlaw.com/in/title-3...code-sect-35-50-2-9.html#sthash.y7uzbBCJ.dpuf
[doublepost=1488853791][/doublepost]Not real sure about death penalty for reason that to "Err is human" and wondering how many innocent people received death penalty, however we do know there have been people who have been wrongly convicted of a crime and spent years in prison before their innocence is brought to light and they are released- -And then too, I like the idea of a "slow" ROT over a "quick and easy out"!

 

[TaupinJohn]

My comment "WHERE IS THE TOOL SITES?" was A REPLY to Muriel Schwenck's comment advising me to use "the tool sites."
And as for "SOMEthing relevant something useful regarding this pretty-damned-serious-kind of story" I have been posting far more RELEVANT posts regarding it than you have!- -by far!!!
[doublepost=1488851796,1488850965][/doublepost]

I don't care WHO you were replying to, that isn't the point. You've been told again and again where to go to find help posting. You've been told specifically: This is a thread about Abby and Libby, all other subjects please refrain. It's not the place for one-on-one conversations: that's what messaging is for. Nobody wants to come here and see a dozen comments, hoping it's news of the murdered girls, and see a dozen posts of nonsensical wtf from you, it just gets old. How do you not know that?

As far you your statement that "I have been posting far more RELEVANT posts regarding it than you have!- -by far!!"
First of all, you sound about 12 years old. Yet you're a grandmother, you say? Damn.
Secondly, I can't tell WHAT you post because when you do, it's just a series of quote/endquote brackets, the same statements two and three times.... I rarely get to what you wrote! Maybe you're a fantastic writer and I should bow to your literary capabilities! How can I know that, though, if I can't read a thing you post?

And please, if I've spoken on this forum of subjects irrelevant to this case, do let me know. If there's one thing I can't stand, it's someone who posts (seemingly) deliberately to derail a thread. If I've done that, by all means: point it out so I can fix it.
If I haven't (and here's a clue: I haven't) then you're just spouting nonsense because you're angry at me for pointing out to you why, after that many suggestions that you take your posting questions elsewhere, the "Where is the tool sites" question was just over the top.

Welcome to the site. I hope that, once you've caught on to the basics of writing a post, we'll be able to communicate in a more civil manner, sharing ideas and theories and experiences, all of which make for good posting. Please don't take personal jabs at my posts by calling them irrelevant. Call them long, boring, cheesy, whatever. But they're on topic and easily read. That's... quite the feat (apparently.)

In turn, I won't take personal jabs like:

Yeah because NOTHING'S more relevant than you quoting yourself (then patting yourself on the back for what you just said) or you asking other members to reply to your questions about posting. (instead of doing what the rest of us did, read the posting instructions.)
Nothing pertains to this case more than the train wreck you continue to present regardless of what's been suggested you do or how many times it's been done. That's relevant as hell. My knowledge of Abby and Libby has increased by reading gems like "Where is the tool sites" and "I'm glad you mentioned that" (when speaking to yourself.)

Thanks for enriching my knowledge with your obvious mountain of case facts. I once was an ignorant peasant, but I am enriched by your words of wisdom, your obvious journalistic prowess, and unrelenting wall of the truth as it pertains to Delphi, Indiana. Thanks for lighting my darkness. I bow to you.

 

[Jaded]

I'm going a little easy on you, @Kseniya, because you are new. Further personal attacks or thread derailments will get you banned from this thread.

As has been mentioned before, if you are having trouble responding and replying and would like help, please make a thread in Site Suggestions or Troubleshooting.

http://www.dreamindemon.com/community/forums/site-suggestions-or-troubleshooting.5/

 

[Kseniya]

Yes to the former:
A person found guilty of murder will receive one of three (3) sentences:
(1) Life imprisonment/no possibility of parole
(2) Between 45 and 65 years (It's usually set at fifty-five (55) years plus $10,000 fine, or
(3) Death.

:sarcasm:- -DOH!

 

[lithiumgirl]

have grandchildren and I never know when they have a day off, unless I see the kids in my neighborhood outside playing,

Why not ???

I don't believe he chanced upon them on the bridge,

I think he chanced upon them ... same way you can chance upon anyone else especially on a hiking trail, joggers, dog walkers, or two girls enjoying snow day, there was nothing specific about Abby and Libby other than they were there. I think any woman on the trail would have been at risk, Its obvious his person wanted to hurt somebody, and it really could have been anyone.

@TaupinJohn ... word about the police crossing t's and dotting i's , building their case.

 

[Kseniya]

PROFILE OF THE SUSPECT?
A member, can't remember who, posted they knew vintage clothes from experience in their work, I believe. Noticed his pants were vintage "wide legged" and they don't make those type pants anymore. He is defintely not a big man, but has put on loose baggy jeans to give himself an appearnce of being bigger than he really is which explains the CPO shirt jacket with an "oversized" hoodie over it. I'm betting he is a man that is small in physique and stature, approx. 5'6-5'8. You can tell by the shape of his face-head in the photo his head does not match up with the body size. This is one reason the perp goes after children and not adult women, who might give him a good fight. Probably is also impotent and I would not doubt if they ever caught up to this guy they'd find child porn in his house. But if the photo is not giving us an accurate description of his appearance, how will they ever find him??? I downloaded the pic and I think if a sketch artist drew his face this would be of great assistance in finding him. There's enough there to get a good sketch of him, which would be clearer for people to see than the photo
[doublepost=1488857470,1488857194][/doublepost]have grandchildren and I never know when they have a day off, unless I see the kids in my neighborhood outside playing,

Why not ???

BECAUSE..... I DON'T LIVE ANYWHERE NEAR THEM, does that satisfy you?
[doublepost=1488857949][/doublepost]

I think he chanced upon them ... same way you can chance upon anyone else especially on a hiking trail, joggers, dog walkers, or two girls enjoying snow day, there was nothing specific about Abby and Libby other than they were there. I think any woman on the trail would have been at risk, Its obvious his person wanted to hurt somebody, and it really could have been anyone.

The ODDS that he would be "on the bridge" at the "exact" same time as the girls without first having made contact with them via Snapchat (social media) where like all perps do, tried to trick them into believing he is just another kid, in my opinion would be slim to none. The odds he came upon them by accident - -not the kind of odds I'd place my bet on if I was to choose between one or the other scenarios.

 

[lithiumgirl]

Creepy kinda reenactment video

I just watched this! Some one was on their way some place and changed their mind when he seen them get out of the car. This is going to be a death penalty case for sure.

 

[thatsmallgrl]

Eight pages of this, and all I've gotten out of it is a poorly written attempt at a script for a bad Criminal Minds episode....

 

[TaupinJohn]

I've gotta ask. It's probably a moot point or doesn't make sense... I've got Instagram but not Snapchat, and I'm assuming they work the same, so:

When Libby took the picture of Abby walking on the tracks and posted it to Snapchat? Isn't it possible that someone who could view her pictures (or the father of someone who could) could have seen that: seen that Libby and Abby were out there, alone from the looks of it, and would therefore be easy prey for someone who had those urges?

It's not unusual for a parent to pick up a kid's phone (or to have his Snapchat account in his, the parent's phone.) So maybe someone on their Snapchat Friends list's father may have seen that the place was deserted but for those two, and simply went for it?

Not saying it was wrong of Libby to post it, of course not. But could that have drawn someone who wasn't far away to begin with, to their location and led them, ultimately, to their death?

Is that possible, anyone know? I can't think of why it wouldn't be. Anybody?

 

[Keepalowprofile]

We can speculate all day and night.
Im just going to wait until LE has something concrete.

 

[Mata Hari]

We can speculate all day and night.
Im just going to wait until LE has something concrete.

Not me! It's speculation station all up in my little brain!

I have been wondering about the relative who supposedly dropped them off. Did they really? It was supposedly the sister of one of them, right? What if this some sick shit like that chick who let her husband rape and kill her virgin sister?

Also, I highly recommend joining the FB group.

They posted about a possible link to another double murder. Lyric Cook and Elizabeth Collins

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/0...and-unsolved-double-murder-young-cousins.html

Basically, the following coincidences:

2 young girls hiking then murdered
On the 13th of the month

 

[mybum62]

I read that on the FB site. What a truly odd coincidence.

 

[Muriel Schwenck]

Kseniya is stretching her theories and speculations so thin the lines snapped.

 

[Victoria]

March 9th, 2017
Indiana teen murder mystery still unsolved over 3 weeks later
Police are hoping for a break in a high-profile murder investigation in Indiana, where two teenage girls were killed last month. There have been thousands of leads, but no arrests. NBC’s Blake McCoy reports for TODAY from Delphi, Indiana.

http://www.today.com/video/indiana-...till-unsolved-over-3-weeks-later-893803075657
[doublepost=1489083010,1489071543][/doublepost]Obituaries

Abigail J. "Abby" Williams

Abigail J. "Abby" Williams
13, of Delphi, died Tuesday, Feb. 14, 2017. She was born June 23, 2003 in Sault Ste. Marie, MI, to her mother Anna M. Williams.

Abby was an 8th grader at Delphi Community Middle School, where she played saxophone in the school band, and was on the volleyball team. She had attended several area churches with her family. She enjoyed reading, and had a big reading counts number in her language arts class. She loved to camp and swim, and loved being outdoors, she liked riding ATV's with her family on camping trips to Michigan. She loved all animals, especially her cat Bongo. She enjoyed photography & art, drawing and creating little masterpiece's, that decorated her mothers home. She and her good friend Libby were excited and looking forward to planning their next 4 years of school together.Surviving: mother-Anna M. Williams of Delphi; maternal - See more at: http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/jconline/obituary.aspx?pid=184160552#sthash.19F4i4jX.dpuf

It is difficult to look at the above picture of Abby's bright, shining face and know some fiend robbed her of the light that once danced in her eyes. I truly can not begin to imagine the hellish pain that twists the heart her family and all who loved Abby are enduring.

Her cruel murderer stole her life, not her light.

 

[Victoria]

DELPHI, Indiana — Mar 9, 2017, 10:42 AM ET
Grandfather of murdered Indiana teen pleads for public's help to find killer: 'Somebody knows something'

http://abcnews.go.com/US/grandfathe...-pleads-publics-find-killer/story?id=45967370

DELPHI, Ind. — AP/4 hrs ago

The grandfather of one of two northern Indiana girls slain last month says he still believes their killer will be found. Associated Press

The comments Thursday from Mike Patty are the first public statements from the families of 14-year-old Liberty German and 13-year-old Abigail Williams since the teens were found dead Feb. 14 in woods near Delphi. The friends had vanished the day before while hiking.

Patty says the loss of his granddaughter, Liberty, tore a hole in his family that will never heal.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime...e-found/ar-AAo4poI?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp

 

[golanvern]

Is there a cause of death yet? I cannot wade through all the griping at the new poster who is having trouble to get it.

I didn't even think about cat fishing until Mata mentioned it. Poor things. Could you imagine? Thinking you are going to meet some cute boy to be murdered and you know all they wanted in the world was their parents to come and save them.

They said they are not releasing the cause/manner of death as it will serve to weed out any false confessions. That being said, there was a comment on one of the websites from someone who supposedly attended the girls' funerals where they stated that both girls had open casket funerals and that both had scarves on their necks - and an insinuation that they had had their throats slashed or were strangled as neither girl was known to normally wear scarves. Also added that the rumour was also that the girls had been tied up and that one girls' body was still somewhat warm when found by searchers so that they expected she either bled to death or died of exposure over the night. Take it for what's it's worth -- approximately 2 cents, but it would explain why no one heard anything like gunshots and the two different dates of death in the obituaries.

I just want this fucker found - and fried ... this week.

 

[lithiumgirl]

I just want this fucker found - and fried ... this week.

I think you'll get your wish ... maybe not this week. I think investigators are are closer than we think to making an arrest, and that they want this person to fry too and that they're building a strong case for court.

 

[Mata Hari]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/shaken-dou...orries-killer-evade-justice/story?id=46019975

Not really an update, except to say nothing new has happened. This case is really bothering me.

 

[Caligirl90]

I'm calling it. This case will go cold. If it's ever solved, it'll be decades and by accident like the Jacob Wetterling case. The difference with this is, at least these parents have a body and know for sure about their kids deaths.

 

[lithiumgirl]

New I'm calling it. This case will go cold.

I hope you're wrong about that.

 

[Caligirl90]

I hope you're wrong about that.

Me too. I'd be more than glad to be wrong on this one. But the further out it gets, the less likely it seems like they can find the killer.

 

[mybum62]

I'm hoping they found DNA. There will be a break in this case some day. I agree. I also think the authorities should send pics/video of the guy to NASA or where ever they have to in order to enhance the images and remove some of the pixels to clean it up. It may give them a better shot at identifying this man.

 

[Kseniya]

On Websleuths website came across something very interesting! Member Eastonwatson posted:

First Post:
"K after looking at this guy's profile, he is not a local but is from about 2 hrs away. Is a hunter. Travels around to all the historical bridges in Indiana appears to have "a fascination" with them. Has been photoed on the Monon bridge wearing blue jeans blue pull over and a camouflage hat. Photoed at another local spot in Delphi wearing same description with a red/rust colored button up shirt underneath pull over hands in pockets. Has obvious knowledge about bridge posted under pics. If this isn't the guy then he's got a twin"

Second Post:
"So I decided to look on Facebook and within less than a minute of looking I find a guy who seems to be fascinated with bridges and what do you know, a pic of him standing on this very bridge with blue jeans a blue hoody and a camouflage hat. I'm new here so I guess I'm not supposed to post pics or Facebook profiles

Another user; Silk replied to his post saying:
Easton: I read regularly but rarely post. I have seen the photos you found and even if it turns out to not be the same person, with the striking similarities in the photos, it would be an injustice to both girls to NOT have passed this info on to law enforcement. You did a great job in finding this potential link!! Too much in common not to share.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Liberty-German-14-Delphi-13-Feb-2017-4/page47
[doublepost=1489520382,1489517886][/doublepost]There is a website called Bridgehunter.com "historic and notable bridges of the u.s." has pages and pages of historic old bridges with photos, maps! Wouldn't surprise me if this is not the way this creep finds locations to operate and possibly being a hunter, is familiar with and feels comfortable in wooded areas. In looking over some of the bridges on that website I saw one looked very similar to Monon but located in MO. I'm starting to wonder if this guy isn't the same guy that killed Lyric Cook and Elizabeth Collins in 2015.
[doublepost=1489521743][/doublepost]When I first came to Demon's Den someone made a comment regarding the pants the suspect is wearing in the pic, about them being rather "wide legged" and them being something you do not see these days, falling more of the line of vintage. I believe she stated she had an area of expertise in this regard. But if his pants legs are so wide you can not tell the actual size of his legs, Then (possibly) add an oversized shirt (or CPO jacket) with an even larger hoodie over would give the appearance of being larger than one truly is, plus a camouflage baseball style cap. This picture might not even be properly representing the true likelness of his body frame and weight, muchless be what he is "normally" seen wearing. In which case that would explain, if he was from Delphi, why no one has recognized him??? This is bugging the shit out of me! "IF" the body's physical appearance is not accurate, and we can barely see a face, how is anyone ever going to catch him?! Maybe he dressed like this to disguise his true appearance in this way. Maybe under all that "wrap" is a small guy who never wears baseball caps. Maybe I'm right and he's just a small "little" PERP, why he goes after children instead of women.
[doublepost=1489522823][/doublepost]I know all of you are as frustrated as me that they are no closer to solving this heinous crime! Maiin question, why hasn't nobody recognized him from the photo??? Grant it, it's not the best but I think if someone saw this guy, knew this guy they'd recognize him, wouldn't you? Is it that he is just not from Delpi? And if he's not from Delphi, if he's from somewhere else in Indiana or some other state, did he come and stay with relatives? Rent a hotel room, or motel room? Did the clerks see anyone "new" in town around then? Or maybe he camped out. Even if he camped out he would have had to have gone to the gas station, the grocery store, stopped at a fast food joint, but the mystery man still remains a mystery. The only thing I can figure is the photo is not an accurate depiction of the guy, but still, even without the photo, I'm sure ppl in Delphi would be racking their brains as to any new faces they saw come into town around then. Sure is a puzzle how he is alluding everyone!

 

[lithiumgirl]

Maybe I'm right and he's just a small "little" PERP, why he goes after children instead of women.

Committing a crime like this and then laying down next to your wife at night doesn't sound like a healthy relationship, or like love exists there and sounds like an attack too me. What kind of man does that too his wife and wow, what kind of woman could stand such a man. If this guy is local and he IS married I hope his wife gets charged for being an accessory. She would totally deserve it ... or that the people in that town burn her fucking house down for her fucking indifference, selfishness and lack of courage.

[doublepost=1489523503,1489522867][/doublepost]

"So I decided to look on Facebook and within less than a minute of looking I find a guy who seems to be fascinated with bridges and what do you know, a pic of him standing on this very bridge with blue jeans a blue hoody and a camouflage hat.

Link to that ???
[doublepost=1489524217][/doublepost]

Maybe under all that "wrap" is a small guy

Know what ... He doesn't look like a small guy at all. The dude looks like a middle aged man. With a middle aged mans body ... I sleep with one similar ... and at his age it blows my mind how strong he is. I don't see a skinny guy at all ... Not even close.

 

[JackBurton]

Is it bad that the biggest reason i hope they find the perpetrator is so kseniya will stop posting their nonsensical, absurdly long dipshit theories.

Maybe the news in that area should just blare readings of her posts from this site 24/7 for a coouple days. I think that has a very good chance of driving the responsible asswipe out from hiding, just to make the pain stop.

 

[ChaosKitty]

I know they did with the dna and am sure they have someone working on the pictures and the recording. I feel like the public only have heard/seen a fraction of what they have.