Oh yeah, because strangling your daughter to death certainly doesn't bring as much shame to a family as divorce does. Duh!

Um, but I thought Islam was a religion of peace? /sarcasm

Our courts can put this "father" into jail, but he's going to be very satisfied that he answered to a higher court and his woman-oppressing buddies are going to agree. He's going to be seen as a martyr, not a murderer. And any women in his social circle are going to take note of what happens when you want to do something such as divorce your husband.

Doubleyoo Tee Eff.

Can't we, i dunno, deport this dude or make him become a Fundamentalist Latter Day Saint or somethin'?

Religion can make otherwise good people do very bad things. It's a lot like money, in that respect.

Neither Christianity nor Islam are religions of peace. All you must do is look to their text to determine this for yourself.

Frankly, though, I wish more of these idiots would move here to do this shit. He'll pay for his crime, here. He may not have in any number of other countries.

It is scary that these people still have this archaic thought process. I have a girlfriend who was raise in this country and her family has lived here for about 30 years and they have arranged her to be married. She has refused and lives in fear. She is a wonderful and giving person and it breaks my heart to see her suffer through this.

Honor killings are becoming more and more popular. There is a strictness in certain cultures, and such as this "honor" killing. The father in their society would have more honor in removing the dishonor from his family than by condoning it. While it is extremely sad, and a loss of such a young life, it is how things are unfortunately.

However, if they want to live by such "honor" I have to feel that they should keep it in their own home countries instead of bringing it here to ours.

Just look at him. He's fucking miserable.

Ridiculous the pressure different societies/religions/etc put on people.....I have to wonder if this man ever loved his daughter at all? I believe he probably did, but the pressure for him to fulfill some bullshit "honor" was stronger than his love for his own flesh and blood.

What a pathetic monster.

Institutionalized misogyny, what a beautiful thing. Fuckass.

Rashad owns a pizza parlor and the family have lived in the neighborhood for a few years. Neighbors state the family is quiet, but noticeable as the women wear traditional Muslim clothing and the father is known to pray in the morning and evenings outside in the yard. Rashid was described by neighbors as a good neighbor and did not recall in prior incidents.

Guess good neighbor doesn't equate to good father. Shitbag.
The fanatics really just tick me the fuck off.

Neither Christianity nor Islam are religions of peace. All you must do is look to their text to determine this for yourself.

As long as you're speaking of the Old Testament, I couldn't agree more. The New Testament does focus a little more on peaceful things. Such as love your neighbor as yourself, render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, etc.

bye bye pizza parlor

father sold her for a fat wad of money ... finances the main reason for an arrangement... it was kill or be killed ?

this poor girl all lonesome, her husband abandonded her... she hadn't seen him in 2 months.... was she living at her parents ... it was 2am when the mother called the police.

this poor girl all lonesome, her husband abandonded her… she hadn’t seen him in 2 months…. was she living at her parents … it was 2am when the mother called the police.

Lonesome? Maybe she didn't like the guy in the first place. She didn't even know him. She was just a womb for sale. Arranged marriages, honor killings -- so primitive. I hate the fact these values are being brought into our country. Fuck diversity when it comes to stuff like this.

Lonesome? Maybe she didn’t like the guy in the first place. She didn’t even know him. She was just a womb for sale. Arranged marriages, honor killings — so primitive. I hate the fact these values are being brought into our country. Fuck diversity when it comes to stuff like this.

Agreed! Damn it, so much pain and suffering some people go over for religion. Is this how they think God (or their god) wants them to live their lives?

Islam has a built in violence against women that Christainity doesn't. The prophet had several women who offended him killed by his followers, the most famous being the poetess Asma Bint Marwan. Because Mohammed is considered the perfect man, his having a woman killed sets a precedent for any man ho feels dishonored to off someone.

Christianity on the other hand is anti-honor killing, as the whole Jesus stopping a woman from being stoned to death story shows. Christian misogyny stops short of murdering women (until the witch trials) partly because the idea of monogomous marriage and the eternal nature of marriage prevent people from simply replacing dead wife after dead wife.

Sorry but I'm a religion geek, I got my B.A. in Comparative Religion.

Sorry but I’m a religion geek, I got my B.A. in Comparative Religion.

What exactly do you do with that professionally? That is if you don't mind me asking.

Islam has a built in violence against women that Christainity doesn’t.

Not sure what you mean by not-built-in as regards, say, the King James Bible. This is an oversimplification, and therefore treading into error. There is much to admire and emulate in Biblical texts, and much to be given pause by. I don't mean to offend, but, personally, I'd slow down, BA in religious studies or not, before making such an unequivocal statement as a scholar or as a layperson. Surely, as a religion major, you read the OT, but perhaps missed some key verses. My PhD says this:

DEUT 25:11-12: If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.

DEUT 22:28-29 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Genesis 19 (the angels visit Lot) implies that hospitality to guests must be maintained even at the risk of violence against daughters.

Genesis 19:8 "Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof."

Judges 19:24 has a similar story where the violence against a woman in place of violence against a male guest is actually executed. Essentially, a group of local men turn up at this guy's house and want to rape his male guest, a Levite preist, and the host calms them down by sending out HIS OWN daughter and another woman to be raped.

Deut 22:13 really sucks: If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her, And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate.... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city SHALL STONE HER WITH STONES that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

And of course there's all the stuff that makes it clear women are to be ruled by their husbands (women didn't recieve the spirit directly from god, anyway), which people like the apostle Paul and the church fathers such as Augustine get huge boners over, making it quite clear that God is the head of Man and Man is the head of Woman.

Genesis 3:16
Unto the woman he said, [. . .] thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man.

1 Corinthians 14:34-36
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Ephesians 5:22-24
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Colossians 3:18
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

1 Timothy 2:11-15
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

1 Peter 3:1
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands.

Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Genesis 38:24
Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt.

We've even got violence against children:

Psalm 137:9. "Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."

In short, yes, the OT condones violence towards women, and it's "built-in." Generals are told to treat women as spoils of war. Adulteresses are to be stoned. Women on their periods are to be shunned. There's rape,beatings, kidnapings, forced marriages.

Here's a quick cheat-sheetof a few more:

2) Glorious murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

3) More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

4) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

5) Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

6) David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)

7) Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

8 ) Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)

9) Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

10) God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

You get my point.

Thank Goddess for you, Sugarglider.

I freaked when I read Rob's statement, too, except I didn't want to put all the work in. And now, no need.

I'll just say AMEN. ;-)

I freaked when I read Rob’s statement, too, except I didn’t want to put all the work in. And now, no need.

LOL, I'm especially fond of Hosea 13:16, where god is cool with "women who are with child" being "ripped up." Next time someone tries to tell you terminating a pregnancy goes against god's will, you can remind them of Hosea 13:16, which makes it clear god is just fine with it ;)

Namaste, Mandella!

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Hosea 13:16 -- The people of Samaria are guilty as charged because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed in war, their children will be smashed to death, and their pregnant women will be ripped open.

Lovely. I wonder what the "prolifers" say about this verse.

No doubt, Wry. Some scary shit in the OT!

I'm no defender of Islam, by ANY means...But, as SugarGlider aptly illustrates, to suggest that these texts degrade women at different levels of severity is an intensely debatable statement, if not down right inaccurate.

When the texts billions of people worship both justify the utter debasement and demonization of the female gender, it's no wonder we see these problems.

Namaste, Mandella!

Yogaluvr? :P

Thanks Sugarglider. I loathe dogma and was going to do the same as you did, but got distracted by a bit of string.

Sorry but I’m a religion geek, I got my B.A. in Comparative Religion.

Damn. You may wanna get your money back.

I keed! I keed!

Yogaluvr?

LOL, it did seem an appropriate way to thank Mandella.

Thanks Sugarglider. I loathe dogma and was going to do the same as you did, but got distracted by a bit of string.

I guess it's pretty clearly a pet peeve of mine. Praise be to the eternal glory of cutting and pasting. My posting is entirely due to its wonderfulness. I think I'll go distract myself with a grilled cheese sandwich now.

Strings, grilled cheeses...and I "get" to go be distracted by a meeting during which I have to berate the group for not doing their job! I hate meetings. I hate people. I hate work.

Love you, guys. Be back soon. :)

Strings, grilled cheeses…and I “get” to go be distracted by a meeting during which I have to berate the group for not doing their job! I hate meetings. I hate people. I hate work.

See, my job, I only have to actually see such people 9 months of the year. Sure you don't want to ditch it for academia?

And now I'm gonna walk the dog, before he distracts me by shitting on the floor. Shit is incrementally (& excrementally) more distracting than string...I think.

Yell at them good, Athena! As my grandma would say, "Give 'em what-for" (she also called "The Price is Right," a show she dearly loved, "Come on Down." As in, "hurry up, it's time to go watch Come on Down!") Anyway, you're alright for a gal who came out of her father's forehead. :)

p.s. I'm also going to go stone myself--not to death, though. And then that 2nd grilled cheese sandwich will be even MORE appealing than the 1st. And then, hell, I guess I better get some actual work done.

Morbid seems to be all tied up in his string! Strong stuff, string. Say that 20 times. --ciao

Much obliged, SugarGlider. Professionally, I'm like a little kid in how frequently I change interests. It is for this reason that I've yet to go to college. I've got too many friends whose degrees have done absolutely nothing for them and, as much as I adore the idea of going to school for the purpose of learning, I feel compelled to obtain a degree that actually applies to my desired career. I just don't know what that is, yet. Summers off would be nice, though. :P

P.S. "Athena" is my real name, and my father suffers from cluster headaches. Wickedly coincidental, or what? ;)

I just can't picture the upbringing.

A little girl, running around all adorable, while Daddy looks on. They sit for a nice father/daughter chat, and Daddy casually mentions, "I love you darling. Just remember that I'm basically your pimp and if you don't marry and fuck who I say you do, then I'll fucking kill you."

I mean, maybe it didn't happen so blatantly as that, but this girl (along with other girls raised by oppressively religious and misogynistic parents) had to grow up just knowing that her father believed that she had no inherent value of her own.

What kind of a mind fuck is that to grow up with? No wonder generations of women are still adhering to male-dominated thought in society as if these ideas, thoughts, traditions, were their own.

God, I need to get back into some women's studies courses; I'm already forgetting the language. I fail to express what I intended, but I hope you get my drift.....

and Namaste to you, Sugarglider. and Namaste to you, as well, Athena.

Also, blessed be. ;-)

Mandella, are you going to organize a bra-burning? Because I'm going to have to opt out. I kinda like mine. :P

That being said, I'd make the effort to attend, maybe some "book club" meetings with you brilliant gals. (You know, the kind where the center of the book conceals a bottle of wine...We can all bring copies. ;))

Ehhhh, I wouldn't bother with the bra burning. I honestly don't wear em, except on the rare occassion that I'm trying to be someone I'm not, or if the top is exceptionally transparent.

Now, the "wine club"....errrr...I mean "book club"....that's something I could go for! ((pinot noir, maybe a nice cabernet sauvignon?))

I just realized that, for the time bieng, I can only read titles by women authors anyway. Getting ready to start Doris Lessings "the Golden Notebook."

I need to learn how to work this site better. It appears you have a whole page thingy, with friends and everything.

Indeed I do. The forums are a separate registry. Register there, and you, too, can create a personalized profile. Donate money to the site, and you get even more cool priviledges. You should think about it. You'd make a fine addition to the Three Things subforum, which is where I tend to hang.

Here's the pathetic part - I already have registered in the forums, I just never figured out how to work it over there. I'm trying now. I think I just added you. Or something.

Here’s the pathetic part - I already have registered in the forums, I just never figured out how to work it over there. I’m trying now. I think I just added you. Or something.

Don't feel bad. I don't navigate the forums well either. Once and a while, I'll get a PM on how to do things. Very nice of them to use PM, I might add. That way they don't confirm my stupidity in public! ;)

I'm happy to extend any assistance, if need be. Don't be shy to ask - we were all unfamiliar at one point. In fact, half the time, I may need to point you in the direction of a more knowledgeable mod. :P

Thanks for the warm welcome, and for the offer of assistance. I'll definitely be taking you up on that.

But, another day. Thank Goddess I'm no longer chained to this fucking desk. FREEDOM AT LAST!!!!!

What kind of a mind fuck is that to grow up with? No wonder generations of women are still adhering to male-dominated thought in society as if these ideas, thoughts, traditions, were their own.

Thank you for saying this so eloquently.

I feel compelled to obtain a degree that actually applies to my desired career. I just don’t know what that is, yet.

Well, Athena, at a certain age, the decision becomes more pressing. Before it became pressing for me, which I guess was circa 29 yrs old, I got an MFA, went to a year of law school...oh, and I travelled a lot here and there. I also waited on lots of tables and served lots of drinks barside. Your process sounds more lucrative than mine was. By the way, I don't recommed law school if one's doing it just to figure out what to do--too expensive unless you have great scholarship funding. You'd be a great lawyer, though...no summers off, of course, but a lawyer named Athena would be hot! Later, maybe youd get a judgeship. A judge named Athena would be even hotter.

P.S. “Athena” is my real name, and my father suffers from cluster headaches. Wickedly coincidental, or what?

You know, I haven't looked at Paradise Lost in awhile, but I recall--in related matters--that Sin is born from Satan's forehead in Book 2. "Born of a wicked headache," I think the line goes.

What kind of a mind fuck is that to grow up with? No wonder generations of women are still adhering to male-dominated thought in society as if these ideas, thoughts, traditions, were their own. God, I need to get back into some women’s studies courses; I’m already forgetting the language. I fail to express what I intended, but I hope you get my drift…..

Mandella--you're looking for this phrase: such women have "internalized their oppression." :)

Oh, Sugarglider. Many thanks. That was really bugging me!!!