Couty Alexander Showed His True Colors
Couty Alexander; Couty & Christa Alexander
Livingston Parish, LA – On the surface, Couty Lamar Alexander looked like such a nice young man. Definitely a church-going young man. Back in 2004, he was part of team of youngsters who traveled to Jamaica to conduct Vacation Bible Schools. Afterward, he said, “It was a wonderful mission field experience. The kids we worked with were great. I can’t wait to go back and see the kids again.†Don’t know if he got to return to Jamaica to see the kids again, but as of last week, he had a special child to think about—his own. Married at the beginning of March, he and Christa Ann (nee Baker) were expecting a baby in December. Looking at the pictures of Christa on Couty’s MySpace, it’s easy to imagine a dark-haired, fair-skinned baby with her mother’s sweet face and smile. It’s also easy to imagine that baby growing up to conduct Vacation Bible Schools in another country just like Daddy did, since both Christa and Couty grew up in God-fearing homes and were active in their Missionary Baptist church.
In addition to his new bride and church activities, Couty recently completed paramedic school and was employed by Acadian Ambulance as an EMT. I don’t know at what level he was certified, but I know if I fell down the stairs or started having chest pains, I’d be damn happy to have him show up to get me to the hospital. Let’s face it, an EMT can be the difference between life and death, so I can see myself thinking of him as a true blessing while he splinted my leg or got the bleeding stopped. Couty must’ve been pretty proud, too, based on the number of pictures he has on MySpace of his classmates and coworkers.
Allow me a quick detour, folks. You know it as well as I do—lots of public servants have a sort of split life. Think about the cops and firefighters you know or have heard about. Their jobs are hard in ways most of us never have to deal with—getting to know the local psych ward candidates, talking down the chick who is on suicide attempt Number 7, understanding that Bubba’s promise to lay off whatever’s killing him is just empty air, knowing that if the little girl you just interviewed were you own daughter, you’d wind up with your hands around someone’s throat…you get my point. Same’s true of EMTs. You hear about them developing a special bond with one another and relying on dark and/or raunchy humor to help get them through the day.
Couty’s MySpace appears to be a reflection of the professional side of his life, since pretty much all his friends there are EMTs. And, yeah, maybe there’s a few slightly risqué comments, some references to booze—nothing alarming, but not really what you’d expect from a young man living a Christ-centered life.
Now, 99% of the time, everything I’ve written up till now would be neither here nor there. Nice young man raised in the church with a beautiful Christian bride, soon to be a father, and having dedicated his professional life to doing good for others. Who cares if his MySpace—which completely lacks any reference to his Christian life and doesn’t even feature his wife as a friend—suggests that when he’s on the job he adopts a slightly different and more accessible persona, maybe worries a little less about a dirty joke or two? Right. Nobody would care. Hell, how many of you reading this have a MySpace profile on which your age is slightly, ahem, deflated? Nobody would care, except that what happened this past Saturday has a lot of people wondering what the fuck was going on with Couty Alexander.
On Saturday evening, while Christa Alexander was gathering clothing for church from her closet, her husband of three months went from being a nice guy to a cold-blooded murdering sonofabitch. Because what Couty did was shoot his 24-year-old pregnant wife in the back of the head with a nine-millimeter pistol. In the back of the head. Did you get that? He shot her in the head, from behind. If this were a novel, we’d say he shot her EXECUTION STYLE. And then? Then, he went to work. A twelve-hour shift as an EMT. Somewhere in Louisiana are people who worked with and people who were cared for by Couty Alexander in the 12 hours after he shot his pregnant wife to death from behind. I would fucking hate to be one of those people today, because that’s just creepy.
We might not know any of this except for the fact that Couty turns out to be not only a cold-blooded murdering sonofabitch but also a pretty damn stupid cold-blooded murdering sonofabitch. Once he finished his shift and got back home, he dialed 911 and reported that he’d returned home to find his wife dead. Dude. You’re an EMT? Did you pay any attention? Are you not aware that time of death can be pinpointed? Naw, he ransacked the house and claimed it was a burglary gone awry and even went so far as to tell police he’d sold a nine-millimeter pistol to some guy named Steve the previous Friday. Alas for Couty, the authorities weren’t buying it. On Sunday, he admitted to shooting Christa. He currently is charged with second-degree murder, first-degree feticide, and obstruction of justice.
As is so often the case, it’s the why that gets me. Why, Couty, why? What could be so horribly wrong in a four-month old marriage that the solution is a bullet? It seems unlikely that after so short a time and while expecting a child, Christa would be planning to leave you. Even if there were problems, there are your families, your church fellowship, your colleagues, somebody could’ve helped, if you’d asked. Why didn’t you ask?
Funeral services for Christa are Thursday at TrinityBaptistChurch in Abita Springs.
Glad to hear you made it through okay, Snuggle. My sister had a houseful at her place near Alexandria, where they dealt with the power outage with oil lamps and endless card games. I heard of some pretty bad stuff down around Morgan City. And another one in the forecast, geez! Hope the other La. posters will check in soon.
To all:
I know some new comments have been made and questions asked. You would have to go and read back through the different posts that do answer many of the questions.
First, as far as Christa’s father, I understand his statement of forgiveness. If my child does something wrong and says I am sorry, I will forgive. This is what restore our fellowship. But, it does not mean that he will not be punished for the actions. Forgiveness does not always been a debt being forgiven. Example I think we can all understand is David in the Bible. He committed adultery. He murdered the woman’s husband. God sent Nathan to confront David for his sin. Did God forgive David of his sin? Yes, he did. Did David reap consequences and judgement for his wrong? Yes, he did. He lost a child. He reaped rebellion in the lives of his other children because of his example. For me, it seems that for me to forgive is to not hold hate in my heart towards a person. It does not mean that they bypass the punishment for their actions. Maybe some may not agree, but I hope this will help some understand this dad’s feeling. They must forgive him in their heart and not harbor anger and hate. Not for Couty’s sake as much as for theirs. Bitterness could hurt Christa’s family more than we know.
As for whether Christa was leaving Couty, this has been stated before. I talked personally with her mother. Christa had not indicted anything to her parents of any problems. She had taken Couty’s suit out and laid it on the ironing board to press. She had gone back to the closet to get her dress. Her mother certainly has no feeling that Christa was in anyway unhappy or upset with Couty. Considering how close their family was, I do believe if Christa had any problems she would have gone to her parents for counsel. She loved and respected their wisdom. So, to the best of anyone’s ability to know, she was not packing to leave.
I do agree with the comment about needing to consider the victim’s family. I love the Alexander family very much, but my heart goes out to the Baker family. They cannot go and visit their daughter. They cannot hug her. The Alexander’s must deal with their own heartaches, but they still go and see the son they love. They still get to hug him. They still can talk with him. Mrs. Baker had one daughter, and they were very close to say the least. She is dealing with the memories. The wedding picture in her living room, the wedding dress, the different items that Christa had for her new home. There are so many struggles for this family. I have daughters. I know the special bond between mom and daughter. This was her only daughter. They had just shared one of the sweetest times in Christa’s life….preparing for her wedding. It was the happiest day of her life. Now, this mom grieves the loss and the memories of what could have been.
I apologize for the long post. I just hope that it clears some questions for some. Do not forget that Couty goes to court September 22. Also, Couty had said some charges were dropped which I could not understand how they could be. Since that time it has been found out none were dropped. As to why they don’t say first degree murder, I believe it has to do with a lack of being able to prove pre-meditated.
Thank you for the update.
And thank you for taking the time to go into the question of what forgiveness is. This has to be the meaning of the word when Christa’s poor father uses it. I am glad he is able to find it in him. Life is too short to harbour resentment long-term, and bitterness would only harm the Bakers, as you say. How the mother is ever going to recover from this, though…… *shakes head*
Abroad you are so right when you say bitterness will only harm the Bakers. I’ve seen bitterness and it eats someone up from the inside out. Research has been done that shows a hardening of the arteries when someone stays angry and harbors unforgiveness. So for your physical health, it isn’t worth it to stay angry and bitter.
Some courts don’t allow the general public to attend as I have attended a court case where everyone was run out. I’d like to attend Couty’s for my own knowledge of what he would say and to support the friends I have in the Alexanders. Does anyone know if this case will allow the general public to attend?
Court cases will usually be public, unless there is special reason to protect a witness (e.g. for reasons of tender age, the potential for embarrassment, or the witness being a police informant). I should think it s unlikely that the doors will be closed to the general public in this case; but maybe someone more familiar with the legal institutions in Louisiana can tell us with more certainty?
Right, sorry. I think I invented that…because I had been thinking, “his lies about accidental shooting would have actually been plausible if he had murdered her outside.” [Could have claimed he was just a nice sweetie pie shooting turtles for fun, when, oh no, an accident occurred]
True! Your body produces too much cortisol (gives you a shubby tummy, too…). It’s not just anger. The biggest one is stress. That’s why it’s the silent killer… It’s hard to control stress, though, if your life is filled with stressors. I wonder how much stress Couty Alexander feels right now?
I would imagine you can find out if the general public will be allowed to attend any upcoming hearing of Couty’s by contacting the Livingston Parish Clerk of Court and asking. The e-mail addresses the CoC has on its contact page are questions@livclerk.org and tsullivan@livclerk.org
Should anyone choose to do so, please let us know what you find out. And if you’re all big wussies, I’ll do it, even though there’s no way I’ll be able to attend!
(Now watch the CoC get an e-mail deluge….)
Lizard, I’ve worked for an attorney and have filed cases in Livingston Parish and let me tell you, you can forget emailing them anything. I emailed them when this first happened to get updates and no one returned the email. That’s how it is over there.
Forgive me if anyone knows a quality person that works for the Livingston Parish Court System. But many are hmmm, how do I say it without being completely cruel……not up to getting the job done with quality and timeliness sp*.
But hey, we can try!! If we bombard them, they are likely to answer at least one email LOL!!! :o)
But really, the best route would be to call them on the telephone. You may hold for 15 minutes but they’ll find someone who’s got the answer!
With all the hurricane issues, many phone systems and internet and power is still out in areas…..so keep that in mind as well.
But indeed, I would like to know.
Just let you know that I tried to email at both addresses on the Clerk of Court site. Both came back as invalid addresses. I think we will just have to call in order to get in touch with them. If I find out anything, I will let you know.
God Bless Louisiana!! We just got power back last night. What a storm (Gustav)! Our area was one of the hardest hit. Huge trees everywhere… on houses, power lines, streets, cars, etc… I’ve lived here my whole life and have never seen anything like this.
Being without power wasn’t so bad. My husband had the foresight to buy a nice generator after Katrina. We were able to run a little air, burn a couple lights, and cook up some decent hot meals. Without television and computers, my family rediscovered how fun board games can be
Lizard, I sent you an e-mail before the storm hit. Maybe Gustav blew it out to kingdom come, I don’t know how cyberspace works. Let me know if you got it.
Thanks to anyone that will post a follow up to the upcoming trial. I’m ready to hear what Couty has to say for himself. I’m starting to hear more and more about his miseries in jail. Apparently he’s afraid for his life (boo hoo). Many of his church members are starting to believe he may be innocent.
Glad you’re ok, Soshocked. Ike knocked us out again for a couple of hours in the middle of dinner preps but I just plugged the ‘ol rice cooker into my generator.
Then, once we moved the bed, curtains, power cords and so forth, the lights came back on!!! So we moved it all back and hopefully no more storms for awhile.
I would like to attend the trial on the 22nd but I just don’t know if I can drive so far with a load of little ones. Babysitters are scarce sp* and based upon some of the stuff I read on this site, I HAVE to be extremely picky!!!
Glad to hear from you Soshocked! Lord, help Louisiana and Texas. It’s in terrible, terrible shape!
I’m glad you’re all right, SoShocked.
SnuggleBB — all you have to do is move the power cords, etc., and the lights come back on. It’s just like all you have to do is write a note and the person shows up just as you sign your name. Minor magic.
SoShocked — Innocent of what? Of being involved at all — they believe that the house was broken into and Christa murdered by a stranger?
I hope someone will be able to attend the trial and tell us what happened.
This innocent, it was an accident crap just boggles me. His church members are really so desperate to believe the best that they’ll go for it? Hand guns don’t just jump in your hand and go off. They don’t have some weird hair trigger. It requires a very committed hard squeeze to fire a 9mm. So was the accident that it was loaded when he pointed it at her head and deliberately squeezed that trigger? I think future jury members should be given the opportunity to fire that weapon if he uses some lame gave-her-a-hug defense, in order to see exactly what it takes to make that gun fire. I think the “accident” was realizing just how messy and completely, horrifyingly irrevocable that act of firing a gun at the back of Christa’s head actually is. He can’t take it back, can’t fix this.
Castille and the others,
Thanks for helping me understand a 9mm gun. Although I love Couty almost like a son and am grieved greatly, in my heart I just could not believe his accident story. I have no experience with a gun, but your comments help me to understand even more that my feelings that it cannot be an accident are right. Why these people are wanting to believe him so much I can only think it is because they loved him and respected him greatly. Most of the young people there had Couty as a mentor and leader in many different ways. I guess they just can’t reconcile the Couty they knew and respected with one that would do this heinous crime. I have spoken to adults from the church, and trust me, they do not believe his story. Most are staying quiet out of respect for the Alexander family.
Just want to let people know that I have tried to contact the Livingston Court House. Both of their emails address return as undeliverable. When I call I get a recording and go round and round, but I never had a real person answer the phone. I will continue to try.
This past week Christa’s brother’s wife had a baby girl. She had told me she was due in September at the funeral for Christa. They named the baby girl Christa. I am sure for Bro. and Mrs. Baker there is a sense of joy and sadness. I know their intend was to honor Christa and they did. But, it is hard too to call the little baby by her name. I would pray for Mrs. Baker especially, that this precious little baby girl would bring a joy to her heart and help to fill a little of the void left by Christa’s death.
I feel sorry for this child, who will always know that her name has a tragic source. Can you imagine? “Christa, what a pretty name? Is it a family name?” “I was named for my aunt who was shot in the back of her head by her husband of four months.”
I have a question and want to make it very clear that I am NOT suggesting that Couty killed Christa because she was “out of obedience” to him. My question is, when a wife is “out of obedience” to her husband, what steps does the community take? What ultimately happens to a woman who won’t agree to be obedient to her husband? Is she honor killed, community shunned, excommunicated, etc.? I am curious to see how this requirement plays out in a Christian community. Thank you.
Another possible route is to try the DA’s office. They have a contact form at http://www.21jdda.org/contact/contact.cfm
Contacting the Sheriff’s office is another option. If it were not a long distance call for me, I would send a fax to the clerk of court.
Wry, there are as many different types of Christians as there are animals in the world almost. So some communities may get involved and some may not.
If they are Amish Christians (and again, there are different kinds of Amish too). Some of the Amish may shun the wife until she gets back into obedience.
Some communities do not get involved and let the husband handle it. It just depends on how committed you are to your particular church and what they believe the Bible says about issues.
The Apostle Paul handled a man sinning (I forget the sin) by not allowing him to come to the church any longer. Some churches do this today, some do not. Some do not have any type of accountability structure so they cannot possibly know what’s going on in the home of the people attending.
Obviously a small church will know what’s happening alot because there’s not enough people to get “lost in the crowd.”
Couty and Christa were Baptist. And there are as many types of Baptists as there are animals in the world too! And one Baptist homeschool family may do things entirely different from another one.
But to answer your question, I believe the typical God-fearing home would require the husband to pray for his wife, and should she continue in disobedience, she could be brought to the pastors for counsil. All these are steps of love to ensure that she doesn’t get so far out in left field that she becomes lost and entangled in the world.
Some measures I agree with and some I do not. They used to beat folks many years ago for disobedience. I know of a church today that still does. That’s crossing some lines that I don’t think should be crossed. This church also handles snakes according to the scripture that Jesus said you will handle poiseneous snakes and you will not be harmed. Again, they take one scripture and turn their church into a snake pit. It’s crazy!
So I hope I’ve given you some insight on this. I did not attend Couty and Christa’s church so I don’t know their stand. But again, Couty may have not held up to the church’s bylaws anyway. I mean, he did commit one of the most horrible sins ever and all churches would agree on that.
And with all that said, I truly believe that Christa did nothing but love and serve her husband completely. She may have been sad in the weeks before her death but it was because of Couty’s doings, not hers. Folks I believe who knew her better than I would agree to this.
So I just pray that truth prevails in his mouth when he goes to speak in court so that true justice is served. And should he lie that the court would see completely through the lie.
Oh my, hope it’s not too long! :o)
The expression “LOL” was invented for this moment.
I call shenanigans.
Same thing here. Finding a sitter on a weekday is tough, and I don’t leave mine with just anyone either. Maybe Isaiah will go and let us all know what happens.
Wrybread, I know it seems obvious that Couty is guilty of murder. He pulled the trigger, he covered up the scene for over 12 hours, and he confessed to the cops. It’s only logical to you and everyone else that doesn’t know Couty, or doesn’t know him that well, to think that he is guilty. But to those who knew Couty well (family and close friends), this may not be logical to them. They grew up with Couty, knew him since he was a little boy, their kids played together, the Alexanders are the pillars of their church and admired by so many ( I admired them too, and I’m not a Fund. Bap). It may be more logical for them to believe that maybe Couty was coerced to confessing, or maybe it was an accident and he was temporarily insane after, etc… or something along those lines. I’m not sure what the line of defense for Couty is, but I do know that the family does not think that he is guilty of cold blooded murder. They are going to church and speaking to their friends, and I’m sure this is the reason why many are starting to speak of his innocence.
Maybe the best way to understand is to think of an outstanding young man you know, maybe a brother, son, or nephew, and then think of him doing what Couty did. What may seem logical to everyone that didn’t know him, may not be logical to you. (I’m not a shrink, nor am I trying to be
As far as the wife subservient thing, I know several women that talk this wife submissive talk. They crack me up because they are so “the boss” in their households. I don’t believe a word of it! I think it’s in the Bible, and it’s popular among the Fund. Bap. to say this. I think their families are like everyone else, the wives are in charge of certain areas and the husbands in charge of other areas. For example, when my husband says we are switching insurances, I don’t question him. When I say we are putting the kids in piano lessons, he doesn’t question me. I don’t know anyone who is actually subservient/submissive to their husbands in all areas. I know Mrs. Alexander, and I find her to be a very sweet and humble, yet strong woman… not submissive at all.
To Soshocked: There are some women who actually do submit to their husbands. No, they are not perfect. They have the sin nature and sometimes they don’t want to submit. That is our human nature. I do believe in the husband being the final authority in the home. I do not think this means that the wife is treated like a nothing. I believe that if the husband fulfills his role properly, he will give heed to the woman’s advice. She has a voice. She is not just a silent part of the marriage. Just as I think children have the right to, in a respectful way, discuss with their parents areas that they have an opinion in. But, in the final decision, the husband should make the choice considering all advice given. When a wife gives the husband his rightful place of authority, I believe the husband gives the wife her rightful place by considering her and loving her as Christ loved the church. He gave his life for the church, so the husband will also want to love the wife and desire only the best for her in every decision he makes. Just as a company has a final authority in leadership, the family must also have a final authority and that is the husband.
I do not believe anyone can say that Mrs. Alexander is strong and so she does not submit to her husband. I think only her husband and children can make that kind of statement. To say that she is not submissive at all is rather strong to say the least. I just ask you to consider what I say.
I did email the D.A.’s office today. I hope they will get back with me about the trial.
Isiah, I don’t know if you are a misogynist or not. I know that you are a sexist. You probably are happy to admit it yourself (if not, then you are a highly conflicted person). I think you also happen to be a TERRIFYING person. I actually think your worldview and your misperceived inferiority of women is DISGUSTING. And my husband, to whom I do not “submit” and whom does not “submit” to me, agrees.
Of course you do! You’re a sexist. Please move to Saudi Arabia, where you’ll be right at home. Your views are UNAMERICAN.
You can’t have it both ways. EITHER the man is the “head” OR the woman has an equal voice.
You are a disgusting, horrifying pig of a person. Women are children, to you. I shudder just reading your verse.
Oh, must he? Please, really, you NEED to move to Saudi Arabia. You make me want to vomit.
Isiah, I don’t know if you are a misogynist or not. I know that you are a sexist. You probably are happy to admit it yourself (if not, then you are a highly conflicted person). I think you also happen to be a TERRIFYING person. I actually think your worldview and your misperceived inferiority of women is DISGUSTING. And my husband, to whom I do not “submit” and whom does not “submit” to me, agrees.
Of course you do! You’re a sexist. Please move to Saudi Arabia, where you’ll be right at home. Your views are UNAMERICAN.
You can’t have it both ways. EITHER the man is the “head” OR the woman has an equal voice.
You are a disgusting, horrifying pig of a person. Women are children, to you. I shudder just reading your verse. It’s vomit-inducing.
.
I’ve no idea how that posted twice, but it’s just fine with me. PLEASE STOP PROSELYTIZING YOUR MAGGOT-RIDDEN DOGMA AND USE YOUR BRAIN, PERHAPS ATROPHIED FROM MUCH MISUSE TO *THINK*–ABOUT ANYTHING, REALLY, BUT PREFERABLY *THIS CASE*. You’re rarely saying zip about the case at hand, “Isiah,: just using this site as a forum to spew your bile-inducing platitudes all over everyone. Retch.
I have 2 things–yes, two more things–to say before I leave this thread.
1) Snugglebb, I’m glad you’re okay.
2) Isiah’s own implicit statement is that Couty was the husband, and even though he was a bad husband, it was his wife’s duty to submit to him. Well, Isiah, you toxic wipe, she’s in submission now. She’s dead.
Sugarglider, we are not here (we being those you disagree with in our faith) to aggravate you or make you want to vomit. Truly. We are here because we’re hurting and don’t understand why Couty did what he did. We are here to comment and state our opinions.
Wrybread asked a question
And so according to our faith in God, I answered his question. Isaiah is not disgusting or any of that other stuff. He’s a gentle, kind, man leading his family by the faith he believes in.
Please don’t believe hateful things about someone when they are just living what our Bible says. I am one of those women that does submit and believe me, my husband is no pig. He’s the greatest, sweetest, kindest, most loving man I’ve ever met in my life. He’s a teddy bear to our children.
We’re not here to speak our faith….just answer the questions that’s asked of us according to what we believe. Peace :o)
It’s not your “faith” that’s aggravating or disgusting. It’s Isiah’s sexism and ignorance. And yours, if indeed you share his feelings about women’s innate inferiority to men. To be perfectly honest, if you’ve internalized your oppression to that degree, Snuggle, I feel sorry for you. I also think that you are part of the problem, if that is the case.
I hope you all are not hypocrites. I hope that if you accept the bible’s statements about how god is the head of man and man is the head of woman, that you also accept the charge in Deuteronomy not to wear linen and wool together.
And I also hope you know something about the history of the bible. I hope you know that it was originally written in ancient greek, then translated to hebrew. I hope you know that many iterations have occured since it becamse the bible in modern English that you read today. If you know anything at all about languages, you know things get lost in translation. You are aware, I’m sure of the statement in Genesis that man was given dominion over the earth and all its creatures. Indeed, this is a line that has been used to justify human domination of the world’s creatures and resources. Do you EVEN KNOW that this was a mistranslation from the Hebrew? That in the text from which your Kings James Version was translated, humans are not the DOMINATOR of the world’s creatures but are supposed to be the WISE CARETAKER and KIND STEWARD? Totally different meaning.
So, as you sit there smug and assured about what the buble says about how men are the head of women, I hope you’ve taken the time to read your bible in the original, in ANCIENT GREEK.
He is indeed that very thing, in my opinion, prima facie: on the face of it.
Yes, a kind, gentle man who believe he is the natural head over woman. Nope, sorry, that doesn’t go together. Again, on the face of it. I’m glad he doesn’t beat his wife, but that’s not the question.
Yes–and part of what “they,” and YOU believe, is that man is the natural head of woman. Christianity has good aspects. Giving someone who is in need a glass of water, that is practicing the teaching of Christ. Man as the head of woman? That is NOT practicing the teaching of Christ. No. Thankfully, not all Christians are the same. But your concepts of female inferioirty come from the same place that a Christian DEFENSE OF SLAVERY did in previous centuries, here in this very country. Do you even know that? Do you REALLY not see the parallel, the exact same rhetoric? Are you so lost within your subservient, unquestioning status?
For the record, I meant to be ugly. I am giving you back a FAITHFUL MIRROR of the ugliness that is inherent in your dogma about women’s inferiority to men.
I will certainly never join you in a belief in the natural inferiority of women.
a) I’m glad your husband is nice to you. But if your husband belives you are naturally inferior to him, he is–prima facie–a pig. That’s my opinion. If you also believe it, I feel sorry for you. And, again, I also think you are part of the problem.
b) again, I reiterate, there are many kinds of Christians. Whatever brand you are, I’d have to say I consdier it a cancer within the faith, and a cancer within our country.
I appreciate your thoughtful response, Snuggle, and I’ve tried to be thoughtful in my own response to you. But I’m not going to stand by while this sort of sexist toxicity is right in front of me, just as I wouldn’t for racist toxicity. If you want to make your version of Christianity look JUST LIKE Islamic extremism, and totally forsake any questioning or critical thinking that fact, you go ahead. Go right ahead, and I will say what I think about it. Again, you can say what I said was ugly. To me, it’s a mirror of the toads and serpents sliding out of your buddy Isaiah’s mouth–metaphorically rather than “literally” speaking.
Christ (no pun intended). Thank god I’m an atheist (I could roll with this for awhile, huh?).
Ultimately, I believe in choice. If a woman chooses to submit, she should be free to without judgment. Let’s be real, now - we’re not all created equal, and there are some loopy-ass women out there who would benefit from a little submission. I will say this, however - If you submit as the result of religious indoctrination and dogma (as opposed to necessity), that programming results only in denying the world your full potential…and that is in no way respectable.
Men are not automatically granted better judgment. In my household, I make the important decisions, because, as bright and caring and generous as my significant other is, I have better judgment. If I were to simply default to his judgment because that’s how I was raised (as opposed to “we tried it both ways, and it works better this way”), I wouldn’t be doing anyone any favors.
Oh, and while it is certainly not ALL bad, “our Bible” has actively repressed natural human progress in a few areas. I’d have to say that the concept of mandatory submission is one of them.
SnuggleBB - One question, if you’d be so kind as to humor me.
You say sumbission in this context is not what we think or else you wouldn’t be a married Christian. What do you think the discrepancy is? How does how we view it differ from what it actually consists of?
Lastly, I’d like to point out that Ted Bundy manned a Suicide Hotline for quite some time. If the Promise Keepers believe that a woman’s place in society and family is less than equal to their own, feeding dissenters does not absolve that. If anything, it sounds like an attempt to pacify individuals who may have legitimate qualms.
Athena–you are indeed a voice of widom. Thanks as always for that fact.
Snuggle, your self-righteous story about the water “before they had even eaten” said this to me: the Promise-keepers did this so that they could feel they were acting in concert with Christ. I think it was entirely self-serving. They weren’t in the middle of the desert. It cost them nothing to do this. Not only did they likely have more water for themselves, but those who spoke against them had–I’m sure–their own water. And more water could be easily gotten. Your promisekeepers did it for show. It just doesn’t show to me what you’ve conveniently decided it shows to you.
Finally, Snuggle: what if your husband lost it? What if he stopped being such a nice ol’ teddy bear? What if he had affair after affair, unrepentantly? What if he hit you? What if he said you couldn’t drive the car? What if he said you needed to bear a burka??? Would you submit? If not, then you do not understand your own faith, or else you are not a true believer. Man is not to question god, because god is the head of man. And woman is thus not to question man, because the hierarhcy between man and woman flows from and mirrors the god-man hierarhcy. If you question, you are NOT submitting. It is the same as, and indeed tantamount to, questioning your faith. And that’s all there is to it. You like it? Go ahead. But–to use an old saying–putting lipstick on a pig doesn’t change the fact that it’s a pig.
I’m going to do you (Snuggle) and Isaiah a favor, and stay off this thread. I would really like to know that Christa’s life is being vindicated and that her murderer, who exacted from her the epitome of submission by killing her, is being brought to jsutice. But I can’t bear to read this crap. I might as well be reading an islamic extremist pamphlet–thanks but no thanks. So, it’s best I be on my way. I’ve said my piece. You and Isaiah both have much invested in your misinterpretation of christ’s teachings, and I will leave you to enjoy that in whatever capacity you are able.
Ooops, I forgot my final point: it is EXACTLY what I think it is, and the details of whether your relationship is pleasant or unpleasant: it is a man who believes he is naturally the superior of his wife because he is a man and she is a woman, and it is a woman who believes she is naturally the inferior of her husband.
Over and OUT. Enjoy talking to yourselves.
You state this as if it’s the only possible, let alone reasonable, model, Isaiah. Among Friends (Quakers,) consensus building is valued in relationships, including marriage. The traditional gist of this would be that you join together in seeking God’s will, and allow yourselves to be brought into unity by God’s power and presence. Now this requires, you know, faith, and a willingness to allow the divine power of God to change hearts and minds in order to bring unity, while giving up a certain amount of petty personal stuff in search of God’s will, (amazing what people of faith will believe God can do when he isn’t busy delegating to husbands some ill defined role of Overseer.) If that’s all too overtly God-focused and faith requiring for you, there’s also a more secular version, good for anyone, that’s more useful to business, schools, etc. It’s well broken down for you here, and worth checking out. http://www.decisionbridges.com/pages/bcsample.htm
The Bible says to submit to your husband as unto the Lord. The Lord wouldn’t ask me to stay in the zone of an abusive husband or do any of the things Sugarglider mentioned. That’s the discrepancy. We are not asked to bow or believe that we are anything less than who we are to our husbands. We are created equal and are equal in the sight of God.
As God designed marriage, He only gave the husband the head because it works best that way. I am welcome to give opinions, go places, spend money, basically whatever anyone else is allowed to do. If my husband errs in something he has done or said, I am welcome to tell him about it as well. It’s a protection. It’s the best way I can describe it.
Again, as I said earlier, there are guys out there who have power trips (Isaiah is not one of them) and use the Bible to suppress their wives with rediculous expectations. And again I say, I would not marry one of those. I have one that’s awesome. Not every Christian is so lucky.
We were asked a question by Wrybread and end up being called ugly, hateful things because we believe in a Book that shows us how to live. Yes, we interpret it differently but really, why so hostile? We answer with kind, respectful explanations according to our beliefs. That’s the freedom of grace. I still love ya Sugarglider!
We don’t come here to change anyone. We are simply answering a question that was asked of us. The extremes are not coming from us as we are not the ones shouting at you harshly with your thoughts of our faith. We simply answered a question. Respect us as we respect you, kindly. :o)
Well, I must say I never expected to get blasted for my comments as much as I did. I do appreciate what Snugglebb said. Let me make one note, I am a female. I am a wife of many years. I have several children. And, I am a homemaker who is more than happy to complete my husband as his helpmeet. God never intended a woman to submit in such ridiculous areas as were stated. Christa believed in submission; this does not mean that she nor I think what her husband did is alright. What he did was wicked and vile. He destroyed the life of a very precious young lady. Just because someone believes in submission, God never intended it to mean a man was free to do anything he wished. I think you did not read my statement of a man loving his wife as Christ loved the church. Couty did not love Christa like that.
The relationship that God established and gave to the man and woman is based on both of them doing as God has commanded. If my husband beats me or abused my children, I am not commanded to submit to that. That would be taking the Word of God out of context. I believe one of the reasons women have had the difficulties they have is because men have failed to fulfill their roles our world. Woman have had to take the lead because men have not.
I am blessed to have a husband who has been a good leader. We don’t always agree. Sometimes he listens to my counsel and feels I am right. Sometimes he makes a different decision than I feel is right, but I trust that when he makes these decisions he feels they are what is best for our family. Not many women have a husband who they trust completely. I do. Does that mean he cannot fail? No. But until he betrays his role as husband, I will stand with him and the decisions he makes.
Christa believed the very same way. After speaking with her mom I think she had no idea of what Couty was doing or was involved with. She loved him and she thought he loved her. Any person is capable of lying and deceiving. Even though, I don’t give up trusting people and believing in them.
I don’t expect everyone on the forum to understand my beliefs. Each of us have different lives and have made different choices. I don’t answer for your decisions and you don’t answer for mine. Each of us choose what we want and don’t want to believe. In the end, we each reap the consequences of those decisions whether good or bad. Sadly for Christa, she was an innocent young lady who trusted the wrong man. She deserved every happiness in life. I grieve her loss.
And for Sugarglider, you need to read your Bible if you think Christ never taught the man is the head of the woman. You will find in Ephesians 5:23 KJV “For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.” I don’t mean to upset you. This has never been my intend. Someone just asked, and I gave my prospective. You have a right to your opinion just like anyone else. For me and my house, we will serve the Lord. And I choose to follow the order that God established. Just because Couty and Christa were Christian does not mean this is why he went off the deep end and killed her. It doesn’t mean because she believed in submission that is why she is dead. She is dead because just like anyone in this entire world, Couty did wrong. He made wrong choices, and no person is above that. We all, if we allow wickedness to enter our lives and our hearts, are able to do the same as Couty. It is my hope we all keep our hearts and minds right and don’t allow wickedness to destroy our lives and family.
As sure as I know I would never do this, I would have thought Couty would not have either. If he can go this far, I know anything is possible. It has made me all the more careful to guard my heart. I don’t want to let Satan destroy my life one day. I do apologize if I said anything that hurt someone. This has never been my intend. If I offended you, Sugarglider, I am sorry. I hope after this post you will understand more of why I feel how I do and allow me the right to feel this way.
Sugarglider,
Thankfully most Christian men don’t talk about their wives being submissive to them. If they are truly honest and men of good character, they can admit that they are pretty much dysfunctional without their wives
(a little humor to lighten things up here)
I’ve known Julee Alexander for several years and I can say that she many, many times makes decisions without consulting her husband. I’m not sure what the whole submissive thing is about. Does it mean that sometimes the wife allows the husband to make the decisions because he knows more about a certain subject? This isn’t submission, this is wisdom. Likewise, there are many areas in which the wife knows more, and the husband steps aside and the wife makes the decision. I know my husband’s best subject areas, and he knows mine. We have an equal respect for each other. Submission is what my dog does when I train him to sit, fetch, and roll over. He submits to my authority.
My good friend attends the Alexander’s church. She talks the submissive talk often. I know this couple well, and she is the one that wears the pants (even though she wears dresses:) I don’t get upset when I hear this kind of talk anymore, I know the truth. I don’t think these women are actually “submissive”. I think it’s just a poor choice of words. Just because they respect their hubbies’ knowledge and let them make decisions doesn’t necessarily mean they are submitting, they are just being smart wives. If he has more knowledge in that area, then he should make the decision.
Here is a portion of the poem “Why Woman Was Created from the Rib of Man”
“Woman was created from the rib of man, not from his head to be above him, nor from his feet to be walked upon, but from his side to be equal, near his arm to be protected, and near his heart to be loved. ”
Poor Christa, the ultimate betrayal of a husband.
God bless you all, and peace. (I’m still trying to get over Isaiah being a woman!)
I believe everyone has the right to their own beliefs, and I respect that. However, I am female and I am a PARTNER to my husband as he is to me. We make the decisions together equally. I trust my husband completely and totally as he does me…THAT is what marriage is. God gave me a brain for a reason…the actually THINK with. That means I don’t HAVE to just go along with something I disagree with. Had God not intended me to use the brain he gave me, he wouldn’t have given me one. Also, the bible was written by men, supposedly inspired by God. Hmmm…funny how it is SO angled against women…funny how throughout history MAN has been determined to keep WOMAN suppressed. Maybe something was lost in the translation huh?
Maybe Sugarglider will come back since Isaiah turned out to be a female ( I wonder why we all thought she was a he?
I think most of the anger came from thinking that Isaiah was a man. The way I see it, if a woman wants to talk that way about herself, it’s her life, whatever. For a man to speak like this about his wife or other wives, expect a reaction like Sugarglider… GET HIM GIRLS!!!! 
Isaiah and Snuggle, why use the word submit? This is what trained animals do and what slaves do to their masters. Why not just say “I trust my husband’s judgments”, or “I listen to my husband’s opinions” or “I value my husband’s ideas”, or “I rely on my husband because he’s so smart on that subject ” etc…. I could go on. Why use the word submit…. YUCK!
It’s the term submit that’s driving everyone crazy. You need to understand it doesn’t mean bow. It’s doesn’t mean he’s greater, smarter, or anything else. Really. It’s just a term our Bible’s use. We live the way you prolly live Sarabei. We respect each other. We make decisions together. We talk to each other. There’s none of this man-handling garbage…..at least not at my house. My husband understands what it means. He lays down his life for his family. I think it’s just that word that’s getting us all. No biggie. It’s just a word.
And I’m freaking out over Isaiah being a girl too!!!! LOL :o) Peace.
I think you are right, it is the submit and obey that are really buggin people. My first husband (EX now thank GOD!) was a lazy SOB. He took HIS paycheck and spent it on golfing, while I tried to keep the house going. My “christian” friends answer to this? I need to OBEY and SUBMIT to my husband’s will, even though it would leave us homeless, it was OK for him to take the keys to our car so I couldn’t have access to it, it was OK for him to put his hands on me inappropriately and verbally abuse me…HE is the HEAD and should be obeyed…Bah…that was STUPID and not what a marriage was supposed to be! I now know, thank GOD what a real marriage is. I am sure you are right that most of you live like we ( we being me and my WONDERFUL husband)do; it is just the fanatics like that “friend” I am talking about that still make me gag when I hear stuff like that.
Dictionary.com:
Submit : to give over or yield to the power or authority of another.
syn : comply, bow, obey, agree, resign
Yes, I think “wives submitting to their husbands” is a poor choice of words. (not unless he married a dog…you know what I mean)
As someone mentioned, Bible words get changed in translation. Also meanings of words change over time. We no longer speak with thees and thous. “Submit” is not a good word to use in a healthy marriage (my opinion). “Respect” would be a better one… Wives respect your husbands.
Submission ultimately means that the woman surrenders authority to her husband. It means that her thoughts, her opinions and her judgments are of less value in the relationship, just like a VP’s judgments are of less value when compared to the President’s. There’s no way around that definition and, if that doesn’t resemble your home life, then you are not submissive.
To suggest that this hierarchy model is the ideal model for a family is flawed. It’s all quite relative, really. This model would be most effective when, in fact, the woman is of diminished capacity when compared to her male counterpart. In a situation like that, it makes sense to assign a single head of household. However, when this circumstance is not evident, logic (rather than birthright) should have the final bearing on all decisions made. Reasoned arguments should be constructed and traded until the resulting conclusion is analytically sound. May the most rational contention win, gender aside.
And, while I would not presume to speak for SugarGlider, I’m willing to bet Isaiah’s gender is of little consequence. I’d reckon her hatred and disgust has everything to do with the message and little, if anything, to do with the messenger.
SoShocked - I’m afraid it’s not that easy. “Respect” has connotations of equality and mutual appreciation and regard. That is clearly not the spirit of the Bible’s teachings. The Bible frequently uses terms like “submit” AND “subject” in relation to how a wife should behave. You might mistranslate once, but it’s highly unlikely that you will mistranslate the same thing multiple different ways. Ephesians 5:22-24 is a good illustration of this.
To you Snuggle and to my good friend, this may just be a word. Your marriage sounds healthy like my friend’s marriage. From what you describe, there is no actual wife submission, only talk of it.
My concern is for the sons and daughters, young men and women that are being taught as girls that they will one day submit to their husbands, and as boys, their wives will one day submit to them. As Sarabel’s story clearly shows, there is a fine line between this teaching and domestic abuse. I’m not taking that chance with my kids. My kids are being taught that marriage is 50/50. You discuss, you rationalize, you compromise, but there is NO submission. They don’t ever have to submit to something they don’t want to. I’ve been married for 20+ years. We’ve done fine without any submitting.
Sarabel, thanks for reminding us how real domestic abuse is.