Modesto Police Officer Does World A Favor

This truly brings tears to my eyes and pain in my heart. I don’t know what else to say without sounding like a blubbering idiot.

I am physically ill. No normal human being could ever have that much rage in them. This man was on some sort of really bad drugs or he is criminally insane.

I hope the baby was knocked unconscious immediately. Tthe thought that the baby may have actually had to endure that entire beating conscious is too much for me. I really am sick.

I’m sure that within a few blows that baby was unconscious. At least, I hope so.

Someone knows who this guy is. I want his picture. I want the baby’s picture. I really hope there’s a Hell and that this monster is getting exactly what he gave that child.

Makes my heart hurt.

I hope the baby was knocked unconscious immediately. Tthe thought that the baby may have actually had to endure that entire beating conscious is too much for me. I really am sick.

Me too K, me too.

Someone knows who this guy is. I want his picture. I want the baby’s picture. I really hope there’s a Hell and that this monster is getting exactly what he gave that child.

If there is a hell there must be heaven. This guy was evil.
So where was god?

This is so disturbing what kind of sick fucker does something like this? I’m thrilled he is dead to bad it wasn’t sooner then maybe the baby would have had a chance!

Sickening!

I can’t fucking deal with this one. I need a face to put to the sick fucker so I can dream of beating his head in. I need a visual to replace the one I have in my head right now.

I hope the motherfucker felt that bullet.

I was just reading this on Msnbc and came to to send you guys the link, Im glad you got to it first. I’m torn between sadness for that poor baby, and happiness that the guy was shot to death.

I don’t get it. I just don’t get it at all. Are you telling me NO ONE could get this asshat off of the child? Not even the fireman?

(The below comments, do not apply to any elderly, handicapped, or teens, but to any able bodied adult (man or woman) who was one of the “witnesses”.)

Let me back up, what I’m asking, not one ADULT who stopped to watch, could get the man’s attention off of the child and unto themselves? And, let me expand on that, not one adult, man or woman, had the balls to fight with this man? Instead, did they think the child had a better chance than they did surviving until the cops could get there?

While I’m sooooo thankful that the officer dropped this POS, just like he deserved, why in the hell didn’t any witness shield that poor child with their own adult body? And the report said “witnesses” – hell couldn’t they have “tag-teamed this POS and stopped him? No, I was not there, but for the life of me, how could any adult continue to watch the murder without fighting to their last breath, instead only dialing 911? HOW?!?! HOW?!?! Why didn’t one of those 911 callers start beating the POS in the head with their precious phone? DAMN!

I’m sure there would have been three dead people, had I been there. There poor child, myself, and finally the POS the cop shot. No matter who’s child it is, if you are an adult, you have to step up and keep the abusing bastard off of that child!!! YOU HAVE TO!!! Anything less, is a ball-less, spineless, chickenshit turd. I cannot believe multiple witness WATCHED this and did nothing but dial 911. They watched a baby get beaten to death and for what, they were afraid they might get hurt a little!! DAMN, DAMN AND DOUBLE DAMN!

I hope the child was unconscious, obviously so the child did not have to endure the complete ordeal, but also so the poor baby did not have to witness all kinds of grown ups, just idly standing by and watching this dick kill him. Even, the fireman, said, “he wanted his ink pen”, which the bastard was calling a knife, but still at the very least the fireman could have stabbed the prick with the pen himself. Any adult, but especially a male adult, that watched this, is a chickenshit – the pure definition of chickenshit and should be hanging their head(s) in shame daily!!!!!!

No, I’m not a badass, but that sorry bastard would have had to kill me before I watched him strike the child once more after I had arrived on the scene. Why did the “witnesses” not help this child? Oh, I remember, the man was out of control and too scary – lets let the child deal with him, while we watch safely over here dialing 911!! DAMN IT!!!!!

I was just reading this on Msnbc and came to to send you guys the link, Im glad you got to it first. I’m torn between sadness for that poor baby, and happiness that the guy was shot to death.

While I’m glad the bastard was killed, I’m outraged at the witnesses. And during that entire rant, I forgot to say how sorry I was for the little guy and anyone who truly did love this poor baby. My prayers are to the child and loved ones. What a useless tragedy.

I’m glad I’m not the only one bothered by the whole “witnesses tried to stop him, but were shaken off” thing. Could no one snatch the baby up of the ground? I cant imagine watching someone do that for more than a second without lunging on their back and killing them. Who the hell were these witnesses? I hope that I’m wrong and maybe the news just didnt report correctly, because Im really not liking what I hear….

“What we got from witnesses is he was punching, slapping, kicking, stomping, shaking,” Singh said. “They tried to intervene and get involved, but their efforts really didn’t have an effect. The suspect was engaged in what he was doing. He just pushed them off and went back to it.”

Above is from the news article on MSNBC. Witness were pushed off and he just went back to it – WTH? Chickenshits!!! He would have had to have “pushed me off of him” until I couldn’t get back up to fight again. DEADBEAT witnesses!! With the exception of the elderly couple.

And the part of “their efforts really didn’t have an effect.” – Hell, sometimes you have to try more than once! Hell sometimes you have to put REAL EFFORT into things, like getting a big asshat off of a 1 or 2 year old child! Sometimes you have to pick something up! How about driving your car into the side of his truck? Now I do understand not trying to run him over – you could have hit the child. But man I would have nailed the side of his truck – HARD! It would not have been drivable, just in case the bastard had killed the child and me and wanted to make an escape before police arrived.

I bet the prick would have changed his attention from the child to his precious truck – you know how people are over their “rides”. In fact, it would not surprise me to find out this bastard went off like this because the child made some little mess in his truck. OHHH Damn, I’m just about to blow a valve here. There were so many things the “witnesses” could have done to get this prick off of that child – yes including getting hurt themselves, for the sake of a child.

The POS abuser is dead, but so help me those damn “witnesses” are just killing me. You know right now, their telling their tales of how traumatic it was for THEM. Sorry bastards! DAMN IT!!!! Do they not get WITNESSES as plural, more than one, they could have ganged up, they could have worked together? Sorry ass witnesses – again, excepting the elderly couple.

…Robinson said the man “wasn’t screaming and wasn’t loud, but was forceful”, saying “demons” were in the boy…)

He says that like it’s a bad thing…

…the suspect continued to kill the child, so the tactical officer did the only thing he could do – he killed the suspect back…

Shame the officer wasn’t flying an Apache, they always make for some fun babykiller perforations!

OMG this is absolutely heartbreaking. I’m with you pooh5….. not one of the adult witnesses could put themselves between the baby and this nut case. I pray to god that if I saw something like this I would have the strength to do what ever I had to do to get him away from that baby.

OMG this is absolutely heartbreaking. I’m with you pooh5….. not one of the adult witnesses could put themselves between the baby and this nut case. I pray to god that if I saw something like this I would have the strength to do what ever I had to do to get him away from that baby.

Its the plural part that is burning my ass, witnessES. Why couldn’t they just stick together and stop this instead of talking and pointing? WHY?

I know I would have the strength to intervene. I only pray that I would have the strength to save the child, at least. — Well, saving myself would be a nice bonus, too. Honestly, any of it would all be “worth it” if the child could walk away and live.

…Robinson said the man “wasn’t screaming and wasn’t loud, but was forceful”, saying “demons” were in the boy…)

And, I had forgot to bitch about this part, too. Thanks for reminding me WWSD.

Forceful? Forceful, my ass. It seems that, especially coming from a person who is trained in saving lives, it would have taken a lot more than “but he was forceful” to stop me. The bastard would have had to of “forced” me dead, or at the very least, “forced” me completely unconscious before I would have stopped trying to save that poor, poor little baby. DAMN!

Shitfuckingcrying. This one has reduced me to tears and snot. Motherfucker. How goddamn horrible.

I’m with Pooh, I would have threw myself on this guy, over and over if necessary. Something, anything. I would not be able to stand there and “watch” this horrid incident. My god. Myfuckinggod.

The guy thought the baby was filled with Demon’s huh? I’m glad he was shot. Did the copper kill him? Please tell me this sick motherfucker is dead.

Bravo to the cop. At least you ended this fucking madness.

The guy thought the baby was filled with Demon’s huh? I’m glad he was shot. Did the copper kill him? Please tell me this sick motherfucker is dead.

Never mind. Now that I’ve stopped balling like a baby, I reread the story and see he was offed by the cop. Right the fuck on.

Please delete post 18. I double posted again trying to fix a boo-boo. (I’m sorry)

Unless the child was already dead or too far gone, when the “witnesses” started stopping, this was a completely preventable death to a child – had any of them been able to gather one set of balls between the lot of them – minus the elderly couple. Hell, it didn’t even take balls. I don’t have any balls and I can assure you, the attacker would have been fighting me until I couldn’t get back up instead of continuing to bash on the child while I watched and dialed the damn phone.

Totally agree with you, Pooh.

Unless the child was already dead or too far gone, when the “witnesses” started stopping, this was a completely preventable death to a child – had any of them been able to gather one set of balls between the lot of them – minus the elderly couple. Hell, it didn’t even take balls. I don’t have any balls and I can assure you, the attacker would have been fighting me until I couldn’t get back up instead of continuing to bash on the child while I watched and dialed the damn phone.

And to add to that, the only way the “witnesses” could have known the child’s condition would have been to get off their asses and get involved and check on the child. That’s why I say, his death may have been prevented – no one knows how bad the child’s condition was because no one took the time to do whatever it took to get to that child. They watched that asshat continue to abuse the child until he was dead.

I hope they can’t sleep at night for not helping that baby.

OMG this is absolutely heartbreaking. I’m with you pooh5….. not one of the adult witnesses could put themselves between the baby and this nut case. I pray to god that if I saw something like this I would have the strength to do what ever I had to do to get him away from that baby.

I am with you, was wondering how much they tried to intervene. My thought would be to huddle over the child and shield him.

That shiny stuff? Is a baby’s blood.

*shudder* thats fucking horrible.
I see a bunch of rocks in that pic, I bet there was one big enough to smash POS’s head in.

TURLOCK JOURNAL stated the male was hispanic, also on the jounal link there are more pics and a movie clip

Like everyone else, I am wondering why the bystanders didn’t get a tire iron, gang up on him, or something.

But…it is harder to fight someone off than one might think. When I was in my late teens, my “boyfriend” followed me home from my workplace, in a rage, threw me into my apartment, and proceeded to beat the shit out of me. I am not a tiny woman, and I had all the strength of youth and survival instinct on my side. And I still could not get him off me, or defend myself. When he threw me down on the ground, believe me, I was kicking upwards into his balls with all the force of my legs, and with my giant hiking boots on (it was winter). I grabbed the iron from the ironing board, and hit him with that. The one person who tried to come to my rescue attacked him with the only weapon he could find–a potato peeler that had been on my kitchen counter. And…nothing. My “boyfriend” just kept shaking us both off like ragdolls, over and over, while he continued to punch me. Oh, I’m sure he felt all of my kicks to the groin and smacks with the iron the next day–but at the time, in the full fury of his rage, he didn’t feel any of it, period. (Looking back, I have to wonder if he was on something. That was before the days of meth, but maybe something like that?) I am, frankly, lucky that he didn’t think to wrestle the iron away and hit me with it, and that he chose to stop for his own reasons. (Since none of my neighbors called the cops or anything. Assholes.)

Of course, there were only two of us–me, and my would-be rescuer–fighing back. And neither of us was a Volunteer Fire Chief (and therefore, presumably trained in feats of strength or anything like that). But when someone is out of their mind–whether through drug use, or rage, or delusions–honestly, it can be really, really difficult to stop them–they don’t register pain, or fear, or worry about their truck or survival instincts of their own–nothing but focusing on their target. And if you’re someone who just happens along the scene, and can’t quite believe the horror that is unfolding in front of you, and you instinctively jump in to help…well, chances are good that you’re not going to be thinking rationally about, “Hmmm, there’s a tire iron in the trunk that I could use,” or that you might even think you had the time to spare to open the trunk, rummage around for the tire iron where it’s bolted down to the spare tire, etc. Chances are, you might be on so much adrenaline that you wouldn’t even remember how to open your trunk. Or what a trunk even is. The guy that tried to come to my rescue–had he been thinking, he might have realized that I probably had more deadly cutlery in the kitchen than just a potato peeler. But a situation like that isn’t really conducive to cool and logical reasoning.

At least these people stopped, and called the cops, and at least tried to do something, which is a hell of a lot more than a lot of bystanders would do. If there is any bystander to share the blame, in my opinion, it’s whatever friends or family allowed a man prone to “demon babies” delusions to have access to this child.

I hope it was a case of the killer being so wildly out of control that the witnesses really couldn’t stop him and that they were so horrified that they weren’t able to come up with creative solutions like running their car into his truck to distract him (that was a good one).

I hope they weren’t simply milling about like the cattle in the photo, and being all, “Geez, we tried to stop him, but he said the kid was infested with demons, and he seemed to know what he was talking about.”

BTW–not to be a spelling nazi, but that should be “bawling”. You guys are bawling. Balling is what you do with your special friend(s).

A lot of people have been trained to not get involved from youth, and most people in my generation and below are adverse to violence and never really had much experience with it. One of the last straws to get me to move from NYC was when I was walking my little dog at around 2:00am when I heard a woman screaming and running down the street a few blocks away. She was yelling “help me” and I heard a car screeching like it was chasing her.

Figuring a lot of people would come out to see what was going on I stopped to put dog in the house and grab my (illegal in NYC) pepper spray and ran to see what was going on.

There was only ONE other dude who came out his house to see even though everyone in this quiet Riverdale neighborhood must of heard it. The woman couldn’t be found and the cops got a total of two 911 calls about it. So me and this 60 year old and one squad car are too late.

Had I knew the degenerates who lived around me would ignore her creams I’d have hauled as over there and left my dog in front of my house. But these people were New Yorkers, and they were scared so they didn’t get involved.

At least the people above tried, no matter how ineffective they were. That they didn’t know how to disable a person who needs it is the fault of our Pacifist loving society. Many people these days just don’t have the skill, or will, to really throw down when it counts. These people seemingly did their best, it just wasn’t good enough but I’d take them as neighbors over the scumbags in NYC any day.

At least these people stopped, and called the cops, and at least tried to do something, which is a hell of a lot more than a lot of bystanders would do. If there is any bystander to share the blame, in my opinion, it’s whatever friends or family allowed a man prone to “demon babies” delusions to have access to this child.

Leemouse, I get what you’re saying. I really do and the reason I do – I’ve had first hand experience, as well, and on both ends. I’ve been the one receiving the rage and I’ve been the one giving the rage. The comments you made about the attacker feeling pain, or should I say not feeling pain, are absolutely correct. However, even though “the pain” inflicted on your ex didn’t stop him, it was a hindrance and had to of kept a few punches from landing on your head. Or, your friend may have distracted him enough for him not to think to take the iron away from you. The point is you both fought to the end, never stopping until he did – even if it was for his own reasons. And you could be wrong about it being “his” reasons – that damn iron may have just got to hurting a little worse than he wanted to hurt you.

I feel every able bodied adult who stopped and witnessed this tragedy should have been fighting for this child until their last breathe, their last drop of blood. They stood a better chance of surviving than the child did, at any point during this attack.

I, however, would have had to have been repeatedly thrown off and unable to get up before I stopped trying to get him off of that child. And if I couldn’t have gotten him off of the child and wanting to kill me instead, then I would have found a way to put my body between him and the child. I would have took his kicks and punches for that baby. I would not have been able to give a news interview afterwards, like the fireman, because I would have been seeking medical attention at the ER.

The biggest part of my problem with all of this is: there were MULTIPLE witnesses. They could have all jumped him or while he was throwing one person off, another could have grabbed the child and ran. Your case was one mean, stronger man on you and a friend, and both of you were adults. This case was a mean POS and a child – with multiple witnesses. Please don’t take this wrong because if I saw you being abused, I would jump in and help you, too.

BUT, when a man is beating on a child, I can reach down deep in my personal hell and find a MEAN and RESOLVE like I can for no other occasion. I could fight harder and take more hits and kicks for a child than I could any adult. Ya know, when you’re getting the shit kicked out of you, you just have to reach down in your gut and get a mean, (which should stay hidden), that would make some criminals shudder. Ya know like the old saying about women cussing, “she can walk into a bar and 5 minutes later sailors come out screaming”. Now that’s the kind of mean and fight you have to muster when some bastard like this needs stopping and you happen to be smaller and weaker. Sometimes it comes down to your “WILL”.

BTW–not to be a spelling nazi, but that should be “bawling”. You guys are bawling. Balling is what you do with your special friend(s).

Thank you – normally shit like that burns my ass and jumps right out at me. But not today, I’m so upset over this little guy. Damn, I hope Angel will give me a pass if she’s reading today. I get 1/2 point for getting my your and you’re right though, don’t I?

No kidding, Pooh. Jump on the guy’s back and gouge his eyes, pull his hair or choke him – something. Three people could easily distract him for at least a few seconds. What a sickening story. My heart bleeds for that poor baby. I hope that creep is enjoying a very special kind of hell.

I hope it was a case of the killer being so wildly out of control that the witnesses really couldn’t stop him and that they were so horrified that they weren’t able to come up with creative solutions like running their car into his truck to distract him (that was a good one).

I understand what you’re saying, as well. The creative solutions like I listed may not have popped into their heads, but damn didn’t “anything” occur to them to do other than just be horrified and watch? You don’t have to be creative to put yourself in harms way to save a child – you have to be willing to take that child’s hits and kicks and slams to the ground, which I’m quite sure I’m more capable of withstanding than any 1 or 2 year old boy.

At least the people above tried, no matter how ineffective they were. That they didn’t know how to disable a person who needs it is the fault of our Pacifist loving society. Many people these days just don’t have the skill, or will, to really throw down when it counts. These people seemingly did their best, it just wasn’t good enough but I’d take them as neighbors over the scumbags in NYC any day.

I agree with the part of them not knowing how -hell, I don’t know how to disable said person – but you will find me fighting to disable them, with what ever I can think of, until they are disabled, I’m disabled, or the cops show. I just can’t get past that many people “watching” and yet they were over their shock and not too horrified to give interviews afterwards. The witnesses were scared they would get hurt, so just let the baby take it – its not my baby or my problem, type of shit.

I have exempted no one but the elderly couple from my rantings. The fireman happens to be the one that’s really burning my ass and the rest of the able bodied adults. Just because they didn’t “know how to disable him” doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have been trying.

I have exempted no one but the elderly couple from my rantings. The fireman happens to be the one that’s really burning my ass and the rest of the able bodied adults. Just because they didn’t “know how to disable him” doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have been trying.

Agreed, but I read the story as showing that these people did try, but couldn’t get the job done. The fireman might have been trying to reason with/restrain the killer, which is less a product of cowardice and more a product of society as a whole “going soft.” Here in SC I walk around with a Kobolt box cutter dangling of my belt, have plenty of guns and can legally kill someone who breaks in my house even if I’m not sure he’s going to kill me. In CA a man hurting a criminal even to defend another may end up in court.

In NYC you could go to jail for killing a man who was killing someone else, in my native NJ self defense is basically illegal. When people grow up in a culture like that it’s difficult for them to react “naturally” to an emergency. Add to that the fact that they’re largely disarmed and you have a recipe for ineffective response.

Some just stood there and should be arrested I think, but not to get political, what can we reasonably expect from people who are neutered by statist mentalities which teach people the government is your parent/bodyguard/god? I bet most of the people there assumed cops would just appear in the nick of time.

I’m disgusted but not surprised.

Agreed, but I read the story as showing that these people did try, but couldn’t get the job done. The fireman might have been trying to reason with/restrain the killer, which is less a product of cowardice and more a product of society as a whole “going soft.” Here in SC I walk around with a Kobolt box cutter dangling of my belt, have plenty of guns and can legally kill someone who breaks in my house even if I’m not sure he’s going to kill me. In CA a man hurting a criminal even to defend another may end up in court.

Again, I see what you’re saying, but how does “if I get involved, I might get in trouble (court)” even enter your mind when a child is being beat to death right in front of your very eyes? How could one be so selfish to worry about a pulling a little time over saving a child’s life? Just how hard did they try to stop the attacker? Be the victim one time and see just how hard you wish everyone would have fought for you. Decide if a bystander stopped, called 911, and let the man pitch them off and then they quit – just see if you felt like they REALLY HAD tried to stop your attacker.

I didn’t see any black eyes or cut lips on the fireman. Hell this baby wasn’t even worth the man getting a good old fashioned shiner. Stopping and dialing 911 and telling the man to stop DOES NOT quailify as trying to get this bastard off of the baby. And, just how much time would it be, if you did get into a little trouble? Time well worth pulling if you have saved a child’s life. Hell, admitted, confessed child rapist and murderers barely get any jail time. I’ll take my chances with a jury of 12 anyday for defending a child against an adult. Again, how would that even cross someone’s mind in the heat of the moment?

I do understand about the “conditioning” and what you’re getting at. However, to me that’s like abuse, in the respect of “its time to break the sick cycle” sometime. Teach the strong to stand up for the weak.

Really, all of this, not getting involved stuff – well, its called apathy. Apathy is killing children. Case in point, read 90% of the articles on the DD.

Ehh, that lawsuit/getting arrested crap doesn’t fly with me. On this radio show that I listen to in Miami, they were discussing the case of the guy who got hit by a car and all those people just stood around not helping him? Anyway, one of the callers tried to condone it by saying “But they could have been sued if they tried to help him!”. And the host of the show basically said what I thought: That’s a fucking excuse people come up with after the fact. Because if you are seeing a child being killed or something equally as traumatic, and someone needs your help, there is no way that you are going to stop and think “Hmm, should I do something? Nah, I might get sued or arrested”. That is a bunch of crap. And I find it hard to believe that any human being would watch a baby being stomped on, but refuse to hurt the guy because they might get put in jail for a night. Give me a break.

BTW, Pooh, I’m glad to see that you are as bothered by this as I am. It helps a little bit to know you’re not angry alone

BTW, Pooh, I’m glad to see that you are as bothered by this as I am. It helps a little bit to know you’re not angry alone

Thanks solange822001. I’m just glad someone else sees where I’m coming from. And what you were talking about in post #36 – they passed the “good samaritan act” just for that very reason – so people would help others without the fear of being sued. They COULD NOT have been sued for trying to help that man after the car hit him. They knew that! It was just an excuse they made after they thought about how sorry they were for just standing there and looking or just passing him by like a piece of paper laying in the road. Maybe they saw themselves on TV and realized what POS they were for not helping and it was even caught on tape – they had to make it sound good to their friends. I wish I had been there to call BULLSHIT! No, I take that back, I wish I had been there to help the poor old man.

And the cows look on in disbelieving horror……

I’m not saying they shouldn’t have gotten involved, just that many people are trained not to. This sort of thing is the by-product of an overall culture of “non-violence” that has slowly bred out the heroic. Sorry to imply I’m excusing their behavior, this was more of an academic point.

My experience is that most people won’t even call a cop for you in places where Cali and NY and Jersey. Having lived there I asked those same questions you were and got those answers. People are scared, of criminals and the states reaction to those who get involved. I’ve seen people dragged off in cuffs after getting jumped and defending themselves. I chose in the past to take the legal risk to help people on occasion but I rarely expect others to do the same.

Like I said, I’m disgusted but not surprised.

O M F G!! This is like 25minutes from me, I have been on that road a few times.

How fucking sad that this happened and only one guy had enough balls to try and stop it? Call me crazy, but I’d knock the motherfucker out with whatever I could get my hands on and snatch the baby up off of the ground.

My heart breaks for his mother.

And the cows look on in disbelieving horror……

Something about all those cows standing there creeps me out. At first I thought it was one of those instances in which there was no photo related to the case so imp selected one with cows. Now I wish she had.

And the cows look on in disbelieving horror……

More like cold indifference

I am sick. I want his picture so we can hate him properly. I don’t know how these witnesses will be able to deal with what that saw. I’d like to know how elderly were they? My dad is 65, and granted he’s an ex-green beret, but he’d of taken that motherfucker to the ground.

More like cold indifference

I think you’re overestimating the capabilities of cows. How about, “Bipedal animals + fast large rolling animals = time to eat!”

I found this from an article:

“By the time the ambulance had left the scene, Singh said, almost a dozen people had witnessed some part of the incident, with at least two trying to physically stop the suspect.”

A DOZEN FUCKING PEOPLE??? And only TWO tried to physically stop the suspect????? If any of those dozen sheeple are reading this now, I DARE you to come on here and explain yourself. I want to know who the fuck you are, and why you would watch a poor innocent baby being beaten to death instead of DOING something. Fuck you, and enjoy hell bastards!

A DOZEN FUCKING PEOPLE??? And only TWO tried to physically stop the suspect????? If any of those dozen sheeple are reading this now, I DARE you to come on here and explain yourself. I want to know who the fuck you are, and why you would watch a poor innocent baby being beaten to death instead of DOING something. Fuck you, and enjoy hell bastards!

As another poster would post: Yeah, what she said!!!!!! Thanks solange, I don’t think I had read that part. That really does qualify how horrific this was. A dozen people, a damn dozen watched. A dozen chickenshits in one place – Is that some kind of record? DAMN, DAMN AND DOUBLE DAMN!! And the fireman, was one of those two that “physically” tried to stop him. I’ll bet you a dime to a donut, the second person was the “elderly” man of the elderly couple that stopped initially – he’s elderly and probably the only one with a “set”. I wish I knew for a fact, so I could properly bash all of the rest of the bystanders.

I’m with solange822001 – if any of you chickenshits are reading, please come forward and tell me what a bitch I am for calling your chickenshit asses out!!! I DARE YOU!!!! You all can tell me how I was not there and I don’t know what I would have done. Come on now, put the pooh in her place – you cowardly bastards!!!! I really want to hear the lame ass shit you can make up for watching that POS beat that baby to death and so severly that the poor little guy has to be identified through DNA!!!

Piece of shit has a name: Sergio Aguilar. I’m off to see if he has a myspace.

Piece of shit has a name: Sergio Aguilar. I’m off to see if he has a myspace.

Thank you for identifying his sorry ass!!!

Sadly, the baby boy died on the way to the hospital, gravely injured and drowning in his own blood.

So much for praying he was knocked out!!! Damn, I’m bawling again. Damn anyone who watched this shit. I’m out! I’ll see you guys tomorrow.

I’m with Pooh….
You’re tellin’ me not one person could’ve scopped that little baby up and ran to their car and locked the doors???
No one could’ve created a diversion…ganged up on him, while just 1 person grabbed that baby & ran???
No way in hell would I have just stood there in horror on the phone… if that was all I had, I’d be smashing the fucker in the face with it.
I’m the type of person who will pull a u-turn & holler at someone if I see them kick their dog.
Until we all rise up to defend the ones who can’t defend themselves – children, elderly, animals – I don’t know how we can consider ourselves human.
The firefighter watching chaps my ass. Are you or are you NOT trained to rescue people??? You can jump into a blazing house & drag bigger people out, but you can’t cover a 1 yr old baby’s body with your own?
Until I hear otherwise, I am sickened by the cowardice.

Ok, my myspace is screwy today. Someone who can, find his picture so we can all see what a piece of shit he is. I think I read the mother’s name was Frances Liliana Casian and the baby had just turned 2 on May 8th. I am physically ill…I swear just when you think you’ve heard the most depraved thing someone can do, another asshole pops up.

The thing that makes me sick is all the witnesses who didn’t do a f*%-ing thing! Like other people have said- gang up on him/make a diversion/ hit him with a car—-DO SOMETHING FOR CRIPES SAKE!!!!!!

I found his Reunion.com site… not much info, but maybe some of you can do some more sleuthing on this asshole!!!!

http://www.reunion.com/sergio-aguilar-SALIDA-CA-.FLOWTOCADIPP.-18735190

Also had a hit on the possible mother… as an elementary teacher… in Delhi, CA… I dunno if it is her though…

http://www.delhi.k12.ca.us/14702012417221410/site/default.asp

UPDATE — 12:40 p.m. TURLOCK — The toddler who was beaten to death on a dark country road Saturday night was killed by his father, The Bee learned today. At the scene of the beating, someone left a teddy bear and a rose today, apparently a memorial for the boy who was killed.

Sergio Aguilar, 27, parked his gold 2002 Toyota truck on West Bradbury Road near the intersection of South Blaker Road in rural Stanislaus County, then punch, kicked and stomped the small boy to death until a Modesto police officer, dropped on the scene by a helicopter, shot the man dead.

Birth records show the baby boy was born May 8, 2006. The mother, Frances Liliana Casian, did not want to comment this morning.

The boy’s name has not been released.

UPDATE — 2:08 p.m. TURLOCK — The Stanislaus County coroner will use DNA technology to confirm that the toddler savagely beaten to death on a rural road near Turlock was killed by his father, the sheriff’s department said today. Detectives said Sergio Casian Aguilar, 27, had no criminal record.

A sheriff’s statement said Chief Coroner Krist Ah You is working with the state Department of Justice to expedite results from the DNA test within a week, instead of the usual four to six weeks.

Toxicology tests on Aguilar’s body and on the body of the child will be taken. Those results are expected in about four weeks.

The sheriff’s department encouraged anyone with information on the case to call the office at 209-525-7114. Callers also may call Crime Stoppers at 521-4636.

—–

BTW–not to be a spelling nazi, but that should be “bawling”. You guys are bawling. Balling is what you do with your special friend(s).

Heehehheee Fuck. I bet I’ve done that more than once around here. Thanks ya Nazi you!

Man!, some can take a small thread and build a roll of carpet out of it.

I usually give credit where credit is due. Volunteer fire chief….in all probability has at least basic understanding and ability to judge a situation for it’s danger level and the chances his planed or desired actions have for success.

He didn’t become the Chief by running into his first fire without thinking only to die in that fire and never fight another one.

Some seem to have completely dismissed the possibility that each of these people assessed this situation correctly and did exactly the right thing. It very well may be that it was clear there was no saving this child. For all we know, their attempts were simply to stop this lunatic from further mutilating a body of a child that was clearly not going to survive the attack.

We don’t even know how long after this attack started the people arrived. He could have been at this beating/mutilation for a half hour or more and there was clearly no chance to save this child. If something even close to that were true, then further attempts to stop him very well could have only served to increase the body count in this situation.

It may also be true that each of them realized that the very best thing they could do for this child is make damn sure they were a good witness so that this crazy fuck paid for his crime they could not stop.

The report even states that the child was GRAVELY injured. The assumption to be that those life ending injuries happened after these other people arrived. None of us know that.

Please note that a trained, ARMED, tactical officer did arrive and assess the situation. His assessment was that DEADLY FORCE was required to stop the threat. That my friends says a lot about the situation.

These people did not, from what has been reported, sit idle and do nothing. They simply did what was within their power to stop the situation and summon help.

Truth is, until you are faced with such a situation, you have absolutely no idea how YOU will react. The vast majority of people when faced with a fight or flight situation, take the flight option. The ones that don’t, land in jobs like firefighter, soldier, cop, or even a trained tactical officer.

There is one sick motherfucker that deserves our anger and hate, and that is the slimy cocksucker that killed this poor child. There is one true coward in this story, and he is dead for killing a baby. My only disappointment is that he was not beaten to death in the same manner as the baby was.

I mean really, this has been something akin to hating the guy that found Alijah James’ body because he didn’t happen along that road sooner.

I hope you all know I’m not attacking you, but I do have issue with your reactions today. I disagree with the assessment of the actions of these good samaritans that tried to help this poor child. If they were as cowardly as presented here, why did they stop when driving by was an option?

I give these people credit for doing what they felt they could, until I hear at least one small shred of evidence otherwise. So far, I have not seen any such evidence.

R

I’m not ready to jump all over the witnesses yet. Reports are still muddled.

A dozen may have viewed at least a part… but it doesn’t tell us what part. Perhaps it was only the copter landing or after the police shooting. Reports say “By the time the ambulance had left the scene”

Reports say the first couple there was an elderly couple who called 911 by 10:15. We know that the idiot was dead within 10 minutes of that. In between those 2 events, we don’t know when and how many others arrived or what exactly they tried to do.

The police report that “They’re watching a helpless baby die in front of them and they’re trying to intervene, but all their efforts aren’t doing anything.” If someone available didn’t do all they could, I assume the police and officials would be outraged and say so.

If those that were able did all they were capable of, throwing stones will only cause them more agony. Until more is released about who was there when and what they did or didn’t do, I’m saving my stones. Rest assured, one word that anyone stood there and watched without a damn good reason and I will toss the whole lot.

Though the baby died on the way to the hospital, I hope that he was knocked out shortly after this heinous act started.

Sergio Casian Aguilar is his name. The boy is referred to in the article as his son. The mother was out of town when it happened.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_9603906
and
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/06/16/BAO911A396.DTL&tsp=1

So, basically a crazy man pulled his poor little ‘demon’ baby out of the truck, and beat it to death. All the while, there are witnesses standing around WATCHING IT HAPPEN?!?! WTF is WRONG with people? I try very hard to see things from every possible perspective, but you would be pretty damn hard pressed to give me ONE single good reason the witnesses couldn’t defend this child in some way. Let alone a DOZEN reasons for a dozen different people that watched this horror unfold. This is THE most disturbing story I have seen on this site, enough to bring tears to my eyes and make me physically ill.

If I were one of those people that happened to drive by, you better believe your ass I would have fought tooth and nail to save that fucking baby. A fucking FIREFIGHTER didn’t defend this child? Are you shitting me? A fire CHIEF, even? Volunteer, or not! It is disturbing enough to think of Joe-Schmo standing by to watch someone beat a child to death, let alone if you are supposed to be a fucking upstanding citizen, like a fire chief. This entire story sickens me.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=289327570

I think this is his MySpace page…Imp, go take a look-see…

Damnit. Ok. After reading comments left prior to mine, I decided that my anger was obviously misplaced. Of course the person at fault here is that poor little boy’s insane father. I can only hope he is being tortured in his own personal Hell by the Devil himself. It is heart-wrenching to think that people witnessed this and nothing could be done. But it is obvious WHO killed an innocent child and he deserves our hate more than anyone else.

As for that poor child, I would think that with what happened, it might not be a stretch to assume that he may have been living in Hell here on earth with his father. I don’t know what his situation was. All I know is that either way, he isn’t feeling pain anymore and that we can be thankful for.

My heart and my prayers go out to that sweet, innocent boy and his family.

Reports say the first couple there was an elderly couple who called 911 by 10:15. We know that the idiot was dead within 10 minutes of that. In between those 2 events, we don’t know when and how many others arrived or what exactly they tried to do.

If those that were able did all they were capable of, throwing stones will only cause them more agony. Until more is released about who was there when and what they did or didn’t do, I’m saving my stones. Rest assured, one word that anyone stood there and watched without a damn good reason and I will toss the whole lot.

Very well put Dakota. I’m holding most of my stones for now too. With what I know so far it is the father that is the focal point of my rage. As more details are released I may start throwing stones, but until then they are in my pocket.

I’ve seen that myspace, but I’m not sure. I mean the age, name and location are right, but it shows 3 children and a wife whose name is not frances or liliana. The children appear to be both of theirs, so I just don’t know. I really don’t think it’s his.

I’ve seen that myspace, but I’m not sure. I mean the age, name and location are right, but it shows 3 children and a wife whose name is not frances or liliana. The children appear to be both of theirs, so I just don’t know. I really don’t think it’s his.

I could be wrong. While I was on there, someone set it to private. It just seemed to fit with his age, location, and a male toddler. I posted pics in the forum but like I said, not 100% it’s them. Guess we’ll find out soon enough.

I could be wrong. While I was on there, someone set it to private. It just seemed to fit with his age, location, and a male toddler. I posted pics in the forum but like I said, not 100% it’s them. Guess we’ll find out soon enough.

Plus someone is online now…not sure, but I don’t think Sergio will be logging on any more. :O

R

Plus someone is online now…not sure, but I don’t think Sergio will be logging on any more. :O

You’re right Harley but maybe a family member? They just released his name a short while ago. The last log in was on June 10… Guess the police or press will release a photo soon. It’s all over the wires so I’m sure that it will happen eventually.

So from reading the article links posted above, the firefighters didn’t arrive until after the guy was shot and tried to save the child. People tried to tackle him, and several of the “witnesses” didn’t even see the beating, they saw the scene after the guy was dead.

So tell me how we get to the “dozens of people watched and did nothing”?

R

Quote from one of the above posted links:

As people tried to intervene, to tackle him, he just went back to what he was doing,” Singh said. “Anything and everything he could do to the baby, that’s what he was doing.”

Firefighters from a nearby station arrived a few minutes later and tried to resuscitate the child. The boy was taken to Emanuel Medical Center in Turlock, but died on the way.

By the time the ambulance had left the scene, Singh said, almost a dozen people had witnessed some part of the incident.

“The two officers on the helicopter, they were pretty shook up about it,” Singh said. “We have to kind of expect this in our line of work. But for people who were just driving home, they weren’t prepared for this. They’re watching a helpless baby die in front of them and they’re trying to intervene, but all their efforts aren’t doing anything.”

So from reading the article links posted above, the firefighters didn’t arrive until after the guy was shot and tried to save the child. People tried to tackle him, and several of the “witnesses” didn’t even see the beating, they saw the scene after the guy was dead.

It sounded to me like the Fire Chief, Dan Robinson wasn’t called to the scene, he drove by after a late dinner and stumbled upon the scene.

“In the shadows and light it looked like he had hit an animal,” said volunteer fire chief Dan Robinson. He was driving home from a late dinner and came upon the scene. “As we backed up again, I could see that he had blood on his arms. I could see that it was a small child.”

You are right about not knowing how many witnesses there were to the actual attack. Who knows how many arrived, and when. The entire thing just sucks. Plain and simple.

I agree with Harley and Dakota here.

I’m saving all of my hate for that piece of shit Sergio.

Wow I think I would have ran over him with my car or jumped him myself and I’m a petite 97 lb girl, but I would like to think if ever confronted with a situation like that I would do something. After being on this website one day I am now pretty afraid of just how many kids get this sort of treatment. All though truthfully at least 4 of my guy friends have been knocked around pretty bad by current or ex stepdads of their moms. It’s sad.

It sounded to me like the Fire Chief, Dan Robinson wasn’t called to the scene, he drove by after a late dinner and stumbled upon the scene.

Agree, after reading the first article, he happened upon the scene.

R

From a recent article:

Mota said she didn’t want to talk about what she saw.
“I don’t think the world needs to know about it. It was horrific enough to see,” she said. “There’s family out there. What I saw was bad enough that I don’t want the family to have to relive it,” she said. “It was very traumatic.”
The passer-by who fought with Aguilar was Dan Robinson, chief of Crows Landing Volunteer Fire Department.
Mota said she was driving to visit her mother when she saw the attack. Other passers-by were in the area, but only she and Robinson had stopped, she said.

I heard a woman screaming and running down the street a few blocks away. She was yelling “help me” and I heard a car screeching like it was chasing her.

Just FYI – something I learned in self-defense class…never scream “help me.” Always scream “FIRE!!!” No one wants to come out if you need help. But, there will be dozens come out to gawk at a fire.

http://cbs13.com/local/infant.death.beating.2.748818.html

His picture is on this link…

I heard a woman screaming and running down the street a few blocks away. She was yelling “help me” and I heard a car screeching like it was chasing her.

Just FYI – something I learned in self-defense class…never scream “help me.” Always scream “FIRE!!!” No one wants to come out if you need help. But, there will be dozens come out to gawk at a fire.

Sorry – but what in the hell are you talking ’bout? Wrong post perhaps? I just scoured this entire post and don’t see any reference to anybody running and tires screaching. Did I miss something?

Sorry – but what in the hell are you talking ’bout? Wrong post perhaps? I just scoured this entire post and don’t see any reference to anybody running and tires screaching. Did I miss something?

Yes, you did. Someone posted a story about a situation that made him leave NYC, in which people chose to do nothing in response to pleas for help. It’s back in this thread somewhere amongst all the gathering and hurling of stones…

Sorry – but what in the hell are you talking ’bout? Wrong post perhaps? I just scoured this entire post and don’t see any reference to anybody running and tires screaching. Did I miss something?

No, it was the right thread. Post number 29 is what I quoted.

Please note that a trained, ARMED, tactical officer did arrive and assess the situation. His assessment was that DEADLY FORCE was required to stop the threat. That my friends says a lot about the situation.

Truth is, until you are faced with such a situation, you have absolutely no idea how YOU will react. The vast majority of people when faced with a fight or flight situation, take the flight option. The ones that don’t, land in jobs like firefighter, soldier, cop, or even a trained tactical officer.

I have to go with you, Harley. I have seen that when people are surprised by something way outside their normal lives, they tend to freeze in shock, and I really doubt that ordinary attempts to restrain someone would have any effect on the guy in this situation. Even the police officer chose to kill the guy instead of trying to cuff him or pull him off the baby.

People aren’t used to being in the presence of this kind of violence — the blood, the focused attack on an infant, the strength of the man and the strength of his rage. This wasn’t a bar fight or a yelling match among neighbors; it was way beyond everyday anger. The guy was insanely enraged and set upon destroying what he believed to be the vehicle of demons.

Let me add that the people who chose the fight option and become a firefighter, soldier, cop, or even a trained tactical officer are carefully practiced in what to do and are carefully desensitized through training so they can do what’s necessary.

I can’t condemn the witnesses without a lot more information.

That guy is not the guy from the aforementioned myspace. I saw the pics off that myspace and that guy was bigger & totally different face.

OMFG! How could this POS do something like this. I read this story in the morning and it still bothers me.. it still makes me angry.. it still makes me hate this so-called ‘man’.

I just read the sfgate link posted in #60 and it gives a bit more details about the confrontation. The father at one time stopped kicking the baby boy to help the Fire Chief locate the hazards on the father’s truck!!! Am I reading this correctly?? The FireChief passengers included his gf, gf’s son, son’s wife, son’s friend. The baby boy was on the ground for that time.. why in the almighty world didn’t someone take that child off the ground and run for their and the child’s life!!!

You bet I’m starting to throw my stones right now!! I swear if it was THEIR child they would of done anything to get that child away from that.

I read this story with my 5mos old on my lap with tears. I’m not much of a fighter but I would of thrown myself down for the baby boy.

God Bless you Sweet Child and may the father burn in his hell.. I wish him shot dead 100x over.

Ok, I just read the Sfgate article and have 2 things: 1) his name in that article is Aguiar, not Aguilar, not sure which is correct. 2) Yep, it does in fact say fire chief went into truck to turn on flashers and Piece of Shit stopped kicking baby long enough to help locate flashers. Why in the FUCK was turning on flashers the first thought that popped into fire chief’s mind. Someone just explain that to me, because, really I want to understand WHY flashers would take precedence over a beaten baby. Why didn’t fire chief knock that son of a bitch to the ground, put him in a headlock, kick him in the nuts, enlist the help of his girlfriend and the other bystanders? Why didnt someone grab a tire tool and work him over? Why didn’t someone have the balls to do a fucking thing but stare at that poor baby? I don’t care if he was dangerous, I don’t care if he was armed…I would rather die trying than live with the memories of doing nothing.

the link stated he had the gall to flip the cop the bird before he (the cop) shot the fucker in the forehead! Son of a bitch, I HATE this scrap of dogshit!

Truth is, until you are faced with such a situation, you have absolutely no idea how YOU will react. The vast majority of people when faced with a fight or flight situation, take the flight option. The ones that don’t, land in jobs like firefighter, soldier, cop, or even a trained tactical officer.

I was not on this particular scene, but I have been in such situations. And I do know exactly how I will react. I think one part that is missing from my posts is the fact, at no time, have I stated I could have stopped this man. The part that I am stating and continue to believe, is that I would have been taken to the ER for treatment or the morgue, too. I by no means, think I could have stopped this prick, but I could have placed myself over the child. I could have, when someone else tackled him, grabbed the child and ran. I would have been there fighting with this prick until he killed me or the cop had dropped his ass. That’s closer to doing “all you can do”. And, I didn’t and don’t have one of those jobs. Its called mother badger instinct, I think.

I hope you all know I’m not attacking you, but I do have issue with your reactions today. I disagree with the assessment of the actions of these good samaritans that tried to help this poor child. If they were as cowardly as presented here, why did they stop when driving by was an option?

Harley, I get what you’re saying. But I find, this watching akin to the man being hit by the car and no one helped. They gawked and passed him by. Now these people didn’t pass the child by, but found it too dangerous to help. There is my problem, the situation was so dangerous, that the adults assessed the situation and decided that little guy would just have to hang in there until the cops showed.

If they were afraid this guy would hurt them – then that’s all the more reason to figure, that child did not stand a chance without someone intervening, without thinking “I might get hurt”. Well, hell yes, you’re probably gonna get hurt, its almost a given – and exactly why the adults shouldn’t have decided the man was just too mean for them to handle and left the baby to fend for himself. When a child is being beaten like that, assessing the situation and deciding that man is going to kill that child – well, hell, that’s all you should need to know.

As people tried to intervene, to tackle him, he just went back to what he was doing,” Singh said. “Anything and everything he could do to the baby, that’s what he was doing.”

When they had him tackled, could no one else pick up the child? Did they ever think they may have to keep tackling him until help arrived? You can’t say you did ALL you could because you tackled him and got thrown off once or twice or ten times if he was still attacking the baby. Did they do all they could do, I mean, “anything and everything” like he was doing to the child?

People aren’t used to being in the presence of this kind of violence — the blood, the focused attack on an infant, the strength of the man and the strength of his rage. This wasn’t a bar fight or a yelling match among neighbors; it was way beyond everyday anger. The guy was insanely enraged and set upon destroying what he believed to be the vehicle of demons.

I have to disagree because of the fireman’s own statements below —

Robinson jumped out of his own vehicle and confronted the man, who lunged at him. Robinson said the man “wasn’t screaming and wasn’t loud, but was forceful”, saying “demons” were in the boy. The attacker hardly even slowed down, but grabbed Robinson’s shirt and tried to take a pen out of his pocket, repeating “Give me the knife… give me the knife.” (I think I’d have given the guy a big rock to the back of the head, but that’s just me.)

Where was the anger and rage? Why didn’t the fireman take the POS advice and use his ink pen to stab the attacker? Why wasn’t he wrestling with the guy all the way until the cops arrived? What was “all he could do”, besides turn on flashers?

I just read the sfgate link posted in #60 and it gives a bit more details about the confrontation. The father at one time stopped kicking the baby boy to help the Fire Chief locate the hazards on the father’s truck!!! Am I reading this correctly?? The FireChief passengers included his gf, gf’s son, son’s wife, son’s friend. The baby boy was on the ground for that time.. why in the almighty world didn’t someone take that child off the ground and run for their and the child’s life!!!

And what about that report? Now, Harley’s right, we don’t know that the boy wasn’t too far gone at this point, but we’ll never know because no one grabbed the child, no one kept on fighting with him instead of allowing him to continue beating on the child. NO ONE did all they could do. Yes Harley’s right again, saying the body count could have been higher – also the body count may have been only ONE, if someone had tried harder or with all they had until the cops arrived or if they ALL had tried to restrain this prick, at one time.

Ok, I just read the Sfgate article and have 2 things: 1) his name in that article is Aguiar, not Aguilar, not sure which is correct. 2) Yep, it does in fact say fire chief went into truck to turn on flashers and Piece of Shit stopped kicking baby long enough to help locate flashers. Why in the FUCK was turning on flashers the first thought that popped into fire chief’s mind. Someone just explain that to me, because, really I want to understand WHY flashers would take precedence over a beaten baby. Why didn’t fire chief knock that son of a bitch to the ground, put him in a headlock, kick him in the nuts, enlist the help of his girlfriend and the other bystanders? Why didnt someone grab a tire tool and work him over? Why didn’t someone have the balls to do a fucking thing but stare at that poor baby? I don’t care if he was dangerous, I don’t care if he was armed…I would rather die trying than live with the memories of doing nothing.

And the last couple of sentences there, now that’s what I’m talking about. If the situation was sssooooooooooooo dangerous, how do you just leave a child to fight for himself? HOW?

A very small pic of that piece of shit in this article….

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/06/16/BAO911A396.DTL&tsp=1

Well, I’d like to think that I’d be jumping on him, distracting him, running him over with a car, etc. My personal fantasy is pulling his feet out from under him or kicking him in a knee — the most unstable joint in the body and one that people don’t tend to defend. Then grabbing up the baby and being able to outrun him.

I don’t understand the part about the fire engine’s flashers at all. That is completely weird and strange.

But I still say until you’re there, you don’t have a clue what your real reaction would be. People can make statements and I hope the brave people here who would go to the grave fighting will come to help me if I’m in trouble. But I am the sort of person who runs to help and has run to help many times without pausing to consider what I could do, and I’m not sure if I could have handled this scene and not been frozen in shock.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/…..&tsp;=1

That article plainly states:

She estimated that she saw Aguiar kick or stomp his son at least 100 times, but she said no one tried to stop him because he appeared to be dangerous. One fear was that “maybe he had something in his pocket,” she said. Also, McKain said, it was clear that “the baby was gone.” Another witness, 23-year-old Lisa Mota, said Aguiar “wasn’t acting like a crazy person, running around or screaming. He said, ‘I’ve just got to get the demons out of him.’ He was very calm.’ “

A calm person punched and kicked that baby over 100 times while the witnesses stood and watched. I wouldn’t care if the baby’s head was 100 yards away, I would have done everything in my power to get that man on the ground with my foot on his neck.

For all of you who are saying “you never know what you would do in that situation” I know this, I may not know exactly what I would have done…but I know exactly what I would not have done…I would have never sat there and watched it.

“McKain said her son, her son’s wife and her son’s friend were also there, as were a woman and a man who pulled up in separate cars. She estimated that she saw Aguiar kick or stomp his son at least 100 times, but she said no one tried to stop him because he appeared to be dangerous. One fear was that “maybe he had something in his pocket,” she said.”

A quote from the SFGATE, from a witness, the fireman’s girlfriend I believe – no one tried to stop him because “he appeared to be dangerous”. CHICKENSHIT fireman and adults. If he was so dangerous, what chance did the baby stand? “Maybe he had something in his pocket” – maybe!?!?!?! they didn’t know he had anything but a “MAYBE” was enough to allow them to watch him stomp the child 100 times without repeatedly trying to stop him – but they did all they could. BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT!!! Come on – they are all chickenshits – exempting the elderly couple.

For all of you who are saying “you never know what you would do in that situation” I know this, I may not know exactly what I would have done…but I know exactly what I would not have done…I would have never sat there and watched it.

EXACTLY!!!!! Thanks, Morbid, I’m glad to see someone other than solange, knows what I’m saying. I can’t state step by step what I would have done but it would have been anything that crossed my mind to protect that child. Man, it takes a while to kick or stomp a hundred times, more proof of the cowardice, if you ask me. Hell, they named off enough people in the fireman’s vehicle, ALONE, to have tag-teamed his sorry ass and stopped this attack, whether it was too late or not – much less the other witnesses. There was 5 FIVE people in the fireman’s truck, 5 adults. DAMN IT!!!!!

One fear was that “maybe he had something in his pocket,” she said.”

And that sentence right there, “ONE fear” – well, I’ll give them that – one of their fears was that – but it boils down to, they decided because of their fears for their adult-selves NOT TO ACT because they might get hurt – WHAT ABOUT THE BABY?

It was self preservation, not caution, not living to fight another day, not assessing the first fire and deciding to live to fight more fires – it was SELF PRESERVATION over the life of a tiny boy who most certainly did not stand a chance against this man!! But the fireman and his party, did have a chance!

They had a chance of surviving this man’s attack. They had a chance to stop the attack. They had a chance to end the attack before it was so severe that the child had to be identified through DNA. The only problem with their CHANCE was: they were to CHICKENSHIT to take the chance to save a baby. Instead the self-preservation took over and they let the child take the brunt of the man’s violence.

And, since he was fire chief, he should have been the very one making the attack plan such as: I’ll tackle him and you grab the child!!! Not, oh shit, he MIGHT hurt me with something he MAY have in his pocket.
I just about shit every time I type something like that! How does any adult fear for their own safety over a small child’s? This was not a space monster, not some unstoppable force, this was some pissy little man that wanted to kill his child, nothing more – a man that bleeds and DIES!

I would love to see the size of this monster compared to the fireman. I’d bet the fireman is taller and larger. Just guessing, but I’d love to see pics of both!

Like I said yesterday, I’m soooooo thankful this man is NOT on my fire department!

Pooh, read the entire article.

Quote: Also, McKain said, it was clear that “the baby was gone.”

Quote: She said the child was unconscious, his clothes falling off, and looked liked a “rag doll.”

Quote: She said there was blood in the truck’s cab.

I can’t find it right now, but read in an article last night that medical personnel on scene said the amount of blood in the cab of the truck suggest the child had been fatally wounded prior to this event.

The only thing the witnesses could do at that point is add to the body count.

Where has any of these people or anyone else associated with the events said they didn’t stop this guy because they were scared?
Having read several other blogs and comments on this news story, I can only find one group blaming the witnesses.

THESE PEOPLE DID NOTHING WRONG.

Why is it so hard to understand that adding yourself as a victim in a situation like this is NOT going to change the outcome.

Would I love to have read that a group of people happened upon this baby beating and beat the father to death? You bet your ass I would.

What if the headline read “Baby, and 4 attempted rescuers killed by carzed man”? Not so much.

ALL of this is based on the ASSUMPTION of the first person to post the THEORY that these people did nothing. No reports or even suggestions by those who have first hand, or near second hand knowledge of the situation, support this theory.

If you want to assume these things and make the story up in your own mind go ahead, that is your right.
Want to blame everyone but the assbag that actually killed the child, again, your right.
Adding to the horror these poor witnesses have already been through, once again your right but don’t expect me to join you. I’ll stick to blaming the empty soul less body that beat this poor poor child to death.

I wonder if someone might read this thread and then decide to just drive on by should they encounter a situation like this for fear of being blamed for the events.

I’m all for blaming, ridiculing, making fun of, hating those that commit these heinous crimes, but I’m not out searching for new people to blame just for the sake of blaming someone.

Why has no one pointed a finger at the mother? Could it be that she knew this fuck was nuts (she left him didn’t she?) and decided she didn’t want to be a baby-momma any more so sent the baby off with him to get rid if the child?

What hasn’t that happened? I think the mother need to be prosecuted for child endangerment in this case. Maybe even first degree murder.

Could it be that there are no reports to suggest such a thing?
See how ridicules it is to suggest such a thing when there is nothing to indicate the possibility in the report?

Its over and I’m out!

R

Why has no one pointed a finger at the mother? Could it be that she knew this fuck was nuts (she left him didn’t she?) and decided she didn’t want to be a baby-momma any more so sent the baby off with him to get rid if the child?

Talk about making assumptions.

Nothing you can say will ever have me not questioning the fact that adults stood and watched a man calmly kick a baby 100 times and did nothing to stop it aside from asking him to stop. Dead baby or not. I don’t blame these people for the baby being dead, it just makes me shake my head in disgust at what society has been molded into, when people will watch a man kick a baby around like a giant Hacky Sack instead of stopping it.

Why has no one pointed a finger at the mother? Could it be that she knew this fuck was nuts (she left him didn’t she?) and decided she didn’t want to be a baby-momma any more so sent the baby off with him to get rid if the child?

Talk about making assumptions.

Nothing you can say will ever have me not questioning the fact that adults stood and watched a man calmly kick a baby 100 times and did nothing to stop it aside from asking him to stop. Dead baby or not. I don’t blame these people for the baby being dead, it just makes me shake my head in disgust at what society has been molded into, when people will watch a man kick a baby around like a giant Hacky Sack instead of stopping it.

Talk about making assumptions.

Talk about selective quoting.
Talk about ignoring relevant content.

You disappoint me man, I truly expected better from you.

R

Talk about making assumptions.

Talk about selective quoting.
Talk about ignoring relevant content.

You disappoint me man, I truly expected better from you.

R

Nothing you can say will ever have me not questioning the fact that adults stood and watched a man calmly kick a baby 100 times and did nothing to stop it aside from asking him to stop. Dead baby or not. I don’t blame these people for the baby being dead, it just makes me shake my head in disgust at what society has been molded into, when people will watch a man kick a baby around like a giant Hacky Sack instead of stopping it.

Would like to think I would have bashed his head in with said rocks I mentioned in an earlier post. Would also like to think that whether the baby was gone or not I would have taken great pleasure in giving him a little head bashing of his own while screaming “let the demon’s out”, fucker. I am glad he is dead. IMO the bullet was too humane for his sick ass.

Nothing you can say will ever have me not questioning the fact that adults stood and watched a man calmly kick a baby 100 times and did nothing to stop it aside from asking him to stop. Dead baby or not. I don’t blame these people for the baby being dead, it just makes me shake my head in disgust at what society has been molded into, when people will watch a man kick a baby around like a giant Hacky Sack instead of stopping it.

Would like to think I would have bashed his head in with said rocks I mentioned in an earlier post. Would also like to think that whether the baby was gone or not I would have taken great pleasure in giving him a little head bashing of his own while screaming “let the demon’s out”, fucker. I am glad he is dead. IMO the bullet was too humane for his sick ass.

That shit about the baby already looking dead and them not acting because of it doesnt fly with me. There is no way that witnesses decided not to act because he already looked “dead”. What if he wasn’t? You cant tell for sure without taking a pulse. That’s no excuse. And I’m sure not all 12 were there during the beating, but chances are SOME of them were. At least 2, and probably more. I don’t buy for one minute that they did the right thing by being “good witnesses”. I will admit that there is a chance that I’m wrong, maybe the situation is difference than it appears, but until I know otherwise, I can’t help to be enraged at everyone involved.

That shit about the baby already looking dead and them not acting because of it doesnt fly with me. There is no way that witnesses decided not to act because he already looked “dead”. What if he wasn’t? You cant tell for sure without taking a pulse. That’s no excuse. And I’m sure not all 12 were there during the beating, but chances are SOME of them were. At least 2, and probably more. I don’t buy for one minute that they did the right thing by being “good witnesses”. I will admit that there is a chance that I’m wrong, maybe the situation is difference than it appears, but until I know otherwise, I can’t help to be enraged at everyone involved.

You disappoint me man, I truly expected better from you.

Well, I am glad I am not here to please, or I might have felt bad.

You stated that we were making assumptions,…hmm…oh yeah, you also follow up with this:

If you want to assume these things and make the story up in your own mind go ahead, that is your right.

You accuse those of us who question why no one did anything of assuming. You then went to compare our theory, based off of published eyewitness accounts of the events, that they watched this man calmly beat, stomp and kick this kid and that he even HELPED the one witness operate his own hazard lights…with the mother being charged with murder because she left the baby with him. I understand your point, it was just an asinine one. Assumptions based off of actual news reports and eyewitness accounts do not equal assumptions made over…no data at all.

The fact that a police officer SHOT and killed a man who was no threat to the officer because why? Right. He was beating a baby. Alive? Dead? Didn’t matter to the cop. If an officer of the law saw a scene in which he thought that deadly force was the only option, than I can safely assume that I would have thought the same thing. Thank god he did not take the time to investigate the cab of the truck, or the condition of the baby, before making that decision, throwing his hands up and stating “Fuck it, the fucking thing is dead anyway”.

It’s all a matter of what you are made of, I guess. Some people can sit and watch a man stomp on a baby head over and over and over and over and over and over again…some cannot.

You disappoint me man, I truly expected better from you.

Well, I am glad I am not here to please, or I might have felt bad.

You stated that we were making assumptions,…hmm…oh yeah, you also follow up with this:

If you want to assume these things and make the story up in your own mind go ahead, that is your right.

You accuse those of us who question why no one did anything of assuming. You then went to compare our theory, based off of published eyewitness accounts of the events, that they watched this man calmly beat, stomp and kick this kid and that he even HELPED the one witness operate his own hazard lights…with the mother being charged with murder because she left the baby with him. I understand your point, it was just an asinine one. Assumptions based off of actual news reports and eyewitness accounts do not equal assumptions made over…no data at all.

The fact that a police officer SHOT and killed a man who was no threat to the officer because why? Right. He was beating a baby. Alive? Dead? Didn’t matter to the cop. If an officer of the law saw a scene in which he thought that deadly force was the only option, than I can safely assume that I would have thought the same thing. Thank god he did not take the time to investigate the cab of the truck, or the condition of the baby, before making that decision, throwing his hands up and stating “Fuck it, the fucking thing is dead anyway”.

It’s all a matter of what you are made of, I guess. Some people can sit and watch a man stomp on a baby head over and over and over and over and over and over again…some cannot.

Oh wow, I just read the last couple of posts, including Morbid’s. Now I KNOW that I’m right. People, there is no excuse for this. Call it stone throwing, judging, whatever you want, I would NOT let that baby be kicked by that man. Like Pooh said, I can shield him with my body and there is NOTHING he can do to get me off. And you know what, I can say with 100 percent certainty that it is what I would have done.

Oh wow, I just read the last couple of posts, including Morbid’s. Now I KNOW that I’m right. People, there is no excuse for this. Call it stone throwing, judging, whatever you want, I would NOT let that baby be kicked by that man. Like Pooh said, I can shield him with my body and there is NOTHING he can do to get me off. And you know what, I can say with 100 percent certainty that it is what I would have done.

The fact that a police officer SHOT and killed a man who was no threat to the officer because why? Right. He was beating a baby. Alive? Dead? Didn’t matter to the cop. If an officer of the law saw a scene in which he thought that deadly force was the only option, than I can safely assume that I would have thought the same thing. Thank god he did not take the time to investigate the cab of the truck, or the condition of the baby, before making that decision, throwing his hands up and stating “Fuck it, the fucking thing is dead anyway”.

Thank you Morbid, for saying things better than I ever could. I am just so angry over this, and disappointed at my friends on here who think it’s ok. I really believe, just from reading comments on a forum, that most of us regulars (including you Harley) would have done more to stop this man. If we could do it, so could they. It’s not their fault the baby is dead, but it doesn’t make what they did (or didnt do) right.

The fact that a police officer SHOT and killed a man who was no threat to the officer because why? Right. He was beating a baby. Alive? Dead? Didn’t matter to the cop. If an officer of the law saw a scene in which he thought that deadly force was the only option, than I can safely assume that I would have thought the same thing. Thank god he did not take the time to investigate the cab of the truck, or the condition of the baby, before making that decision, throwing his hands up and stating “Fuck it, the fucking thing is dead anyway”.

Thank you Morbid, for saying things better than I ever could. I am just so angry over this, and disappointed at my friends on here who think it’s ok. I really believe, just from reading comments on a forum, that most of us regulars (including you Harley) would have done more to stop this man. If we could do it, so could they. It’s not their fault the baby is dead, but it doesn’t make what they did (or didnt do) right.

Actually I just read a new article and you guys were right, the fire”man” flashed a badge at the guy and asked him politely to stop. I read the original reports too quickly perhaps because I assumed there was some sort of struggle.

These witnesses are as guilty as that scumbag. I’m just sorry the cops bullet didn’t go through the murderer and into one of the cretin who watched.

“I’m proud of my flight officer,” Latapie said Monday. “Making a shot like that, under those conditions, in a low-light, high-stress condition, is almost unheard of. There aren’t a lot of people who can make a shot like that in daylight at the range.”

Oh, and another thing, I know that I talk a lot of shit about cops, but I must say that Officer Ramar, you are my hero! Thank god that there are people like you in this world

“I’m proud of my flight officer,” Latapie said Monday. “Making a shot like that, under those conditions, in a low-light, high-stress condition, is almost unheard of. There aren’t a lot of people who can make a shot like that in daylight at the range.”

Oh, and another thing, I know that I talk a lot of shit about cops, but I must say that Officer Ramar, you are my hero! Thank god that there are people like you in this world

Actually I just read a new article and you guys were right, the fire”man” flashed a badge at the guy and asked him politely to stop. I read the original reports too quickly perhaps because I assumed there was some sort of struggle.

These witnesses are as guilty as that scumbag. I’m just sorry the cops bullet didn’t go through the murderer and into one of the cretin who watched.

Exactly my point. The whole part about the hazard lights just kills me. At the point the monster went to help the firefighter turn on the hazards, someone else could have grabbed the baby up off the ground. I dont care if it was too late, you can’t know for sure. For them to watch him kick the baby 100 times? There is no excuse for that. I hope they read this article, because I want them to know how disgusting and spineless they are.

Actually I just read a new article and you guys were right, the fire”man” flashed a badge at the guy and asked him politely to stop. I read the original reports too quickly perhaps because I assumed there was some sort of struggle.

These witnesses are as guilty as that scumbag. I’m just sorry the cops bullet didn’t go through the murderer and into one of the cretin who watched.

Exactly my point. The whole part about the hazard lights just kills me. At the point the monster went to help the firefighter turn on the hazards, someone else could have grabbed the baby up off the ground. I dont care if it was too late, you can’t know for sure. For them to watch him kick the baby 100 times? There is no excuse for that. I hope they read this article, because I want them to know how disgusting and spineless they are.

I can’t find it right now, but read in an article last night that medical personnel on scene said the amount of blood in the cab of the truck suggest the child had been fatally wounded prior to this event.

fatally wounded or not, there was more to be done by the witnesses. As one sheriff stated – “That baby needed help and I knew we had to do something,” the pilot, Sheriff’s Deputy Rob Latapie, said in a statement.

I am not blaming the witnesses, just pointing out that more could’ve been done whether or not the baby was already fatally injured.

how can one say.. ‘ oh he was already dying, so all i can do is watch and try not to get hurt ‘.

There was another case in CA, I think, about a man chasing a little boy with an ax throughout the apt complex.. the mother got hurt and a witness – a female senior citizen got slashed trying to protect the little boy.

face it, there are some witnesses that just sit and watch the show and there are some that react to protect those that can’t protect themselves whether they’ve been fatally injured or not

the ‘father’ holds a very special place of pure hatred.. even death 100x wouldn’t be sufficient.

I can’t find it right now, but read in an article last night that medical personnel on scene said the amount of blood in the cab of the truck suggest the child had been fatally wounded prior to this event.

fatally wounded or not, there was more to be done by the witnesses. As one sheriff stated – “That baby needed help and I knew we had to do something,” the pilot, Sheriff’s Deputy Rob Latapie, said in a statement.

I am not blaming the witnesses, just pointing out that more could’ve been done whether or not the baby was already fatally injured.

how can one say.. ‘ oh he was already dying, so all i can do is watch and try not to get hurt ‘.

There was another case in CA, I think, about a man chasing a little boy with an ax throughout the apt complex.. the mother got hurt and a witness – a female senior citizen got slashed trying to protect the little boy.

face it, there are some witnesses that just sit and watch the show and there are some that react to protect those that can’t protect themselves whether they’ve been fatally injured or not

the ‘father’ holds a very special place of pure hatred.. even death 100x wouldn’t be sufficient.

Quote: Also, McKain said, it was clear that “the baby was gone.”

She ASSUMED the baby was gone but was wrong – the poor little guy died on the way to the hospital. Had she witnessed 1-4 kicks instead of a hundred, the little guy just might have survived.

Quote: She said the child was unconscious, his clothes falling off, and looked liked a “rag doll.”

Again, she ASSUMED. And I pray the little guy was unconscious. Well first, it was obvious “the baby was gone”, then he was “unconscious” – which was it? No one knew because they never got close enough to the baby to have a clue.

Quote: She said there was blood in the truck’s cab.

I can’t find it right now, but read in an article last night that medical personnel on scene said the amount of blood in the cab of the truck suggest the child had been fatally wounded prior to this event.

While I agree that the child may have been fatally wounded, NO ONE knew that – they ASSUMED. A good excuse to tell your buddies instead of I’m a CHICKENSHIT.

The only thing the witnesses could do at that point is add to the body count.

Yes they could have added to the body count, the abusing bastard’s body. Again, this is what they ASSUMED because not one of them had the courage to get out and grab the child while one of the others tackled the bastard. There were three adult men in that one vehicle, so you’re saying that all three of them couldn’t have managed to get this prick on the ground, while one of the two adult women grabbed the child and ran?

And, being that you mentioned it, re-reading the entire article give me about 10 more holes to shoot in their story. The brave fireman told how they did all they could do. His very own girlfriend stated in her portion of the interview, that no one tried to stop him because “he appeared to be dangerous”. She also stated that “he may have had something in his pocket” – yeah, right, that’s why he asked her old man for a knife. The bastard didn’t even have a pocket knife on him.

ALL of this is based on the ASSUMPTION of the first person to post the THEORY that these people did nothing. No reports or even suggestions by those who have first hand, or near second hand knowledge of the situation, support this theory.

Maybe you should read this article link posted below, interviewing the girlfriend of the brave fireman – her account is different than his and just how much effort was put into trying to stop this attack. At no point, did anyone know for a fact the child was dead. They did however, stay in the safety of their car while letting the poor baby face this prick alone.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/06/16/BAO911A396.DTL&tsp=1

Even the other lady witness stated:

” Another witness, 23-year-old Lisa Mota, said Aguiar “wasn’t acting like a crazy person, running around or screaming. He said, ‘I’ve just got to get the demons out of him.’ He was very calm.’ ”

Yes, I sure can see how the three men were so intimidated. BULLSHIT!

And just for the record, I’m not blaming these guys for killing the child or even allowing the child to be killed. I blame them for sitting on their collective asses and making sure of their own safety, instead of trying to help a 2 year old boy, no matter his condition and clearly no one was ever close enough to the child to make that evaluation.

“She said the child was unconscious, his clothes falling off, and looked liked a “rag doll.” Robinson, a volunteer fire chief in Crows Landing, showed Aguiar his badge and ordered him to stop, but Aguiar calmly said something like, “It’s just trash,” McKain said.

Aguiar also said, “Look how they make toys now,” McKain said, and at one point asked Robinson for a knife.

When Robinson went into the pickup to turn on the hazard lights, Aguiar stopped kicking the boy, helped him find the flashers, then went back to his attack, McKain said. She said there was blood in the truck’s cab.”

And when he stopped kicking the child to assist in FINDING THE DAMN FLASHERS, why did no one grab the child then? Why didn’t the fireman even ATTEMPT to subdue the prick while he was at his truck? Instead, he helped with the flashers and went back to his business, without ANYONE trying to stop him. WHY?

Nothing you can say will ever have me not questioning the fact that adults stood and watched a man calmly kick a baby 100 times and did nothing to stop it aside from asking him to stop. Dead baby or not. I don’t blame these people for the baby being dead, it just makes me shake my head in disgust at what society has been molded into, when people will watch a man kick a baby around like a giant Hacky Sack instead of stopping it.

Exactly what Morbid said. The child’s death is not their fault. What is their faults, is not even attempting to stop this tragedy because they were more concerned for their OWN safety. It was self-preservation, not any assessment and a logical decision. It was cowardly. Its disgusting. Its sickening to the point of my stomach physically hurts.

And one last thing, the fireman pulled his badge and ordered him to stop – WTH? This wanna be cop, pulled his badge in an effort to appear to be LE. This was not a fire and clearly this man didn’t give a fat rat’s ass about anyone watching, LE or not. So instead of even allowing the bastard to know he was on the scene, why didn’t the fireman SNEAK attack him from behind? Oh, I know the answer, “he appeared dangerous”. Please!

Quote: Also, McKain said, it was clear that “the baby was gone.”

She ASSUMED the baby was gone but was wrong – the poor little guy died on the way to the hospital. Had she witnessed 1-4 kicks instead of a hundred, the little guy just might have survived.

Quote: She said the child was unconscious, his clothes falling off, and looked liked a “rag doll.”

Again, she ASSUMED. And I pray the little guy was unconscious. Well first, it was obvious “the baby was gone”, then he was “unconscious” – which was it? No one knew because they never got close enough to the baby to have a clue.

Quote: She said there was blood in the truck’s cab.

I can’t find it right now, but read in an article last night that medical personnel on scene said the amount of blood in the cab of the truck suggest the child had been fatally wounded prior to this event.

While I agree that the child may have been fatally wounded, NO ONE knew that – they ASSUMED. A good excuse to tell your buddies instead of I’m a CHICKENSHIT.

The only thing the witnesses could do at that point is add to the body count.

Yes they could have added to the body count, the abusing bastard’s body. Again, this is what they ASSUMED because not one of them had the courage to get out and grab the child while one of the others tackled the bastard. There were three adult men in that one vehicle, so you’re saying that all three of them couldn’t have managed to get this prick on the ground, while one of the two adult women grabbed the child and ran?

And, being that you mentioned it, re-reading the entire article give me about 10 more holes to shoot in their story. The brave fireman told how they did all they could do. His very own girlfriend stated in her portion of the interview, that no one tried to stop him because “he appeared to be dangerous”. She also stated that “he may have had something in his pocket” – yeah, right, that’s why he asked her old man for a knife. The bastard didn’t even have a pocket knife on him.

ALL of this is based on the ASSUMPTION of the first person to post the THEORY that these people did nothing. No reports or even suggestions by those who have first hand, or near second hand knowledge of the situation, support this theory.

Maybe you should read this article link posted below, interviewing the girlfriend of the brave fireman – her account is different than his and just how much effort was put into trying to stop this attack. At no point, did anyone know for a fact the child was dead. They did however, stay in the safety of their car while letting the poor baby face this prick alone.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/06/16/BAO911A396.DTL&tsp=1

Even the other lady witness stated:

” Another witness, 23-year-old Lisa Mota, said Aguiar “wasn’t acting like a crazy person, running around or screaming. He said, ‘I’ve just got to get the demons out of him.’ He was very calm.’ ”

Yes, I sure can see how the three men were so intimidated. BULLSHIT!

And just for the record, I’m not blaming these guys for killing the child or even allowing the child to be killed. I blame them for sitting on their collective asses and making sure of their own safety, instead of trying to help a 2 year old boy, no matter his condition and clearly no one was ever close enough to the child to make that evaluation.

“She said the child was unconscious, his clothes falling off, and looked liked a “rag doll.” Robinson, a volunteer fire chief in Crows Landing, showed Aguiar his badge and ordered him to stop, but Aguiar calmly said something like, “It’s just trash,” McKain said.

Aguiar also said, “Look how they make toys now,” McKain said, and at one point asked Robinson for a knife.

When Robinson went into the pickup to turn on the hazard lights, Aguiar stopped kicking the boy, helped him find the flashers, then went back to his attack, McKain said. She said there was blood in the truck’s cab.”

And when he stopped kicking the child to assist in FINDING THE DAMN FLASHERS, why did no one grab the child then? Why didn’t the fireman even ATTEMPT to subdue the prick while he was at his truck? Instead, he helped with the flashers and went back to his business, without ANYONE trying to stop him. WHY?

Nothing you can say will ever have me not questioning the fact that adults stood and watched a man calmly kick a baby 100 times and did nothing to stop it aside from asking him to stop. Dead baby or not. I don’t blame these people for the baby being dead, it just makes me shake my head in disgust at what society has been molded into, when people will watch a man kick a baby around like a giant Hacky Sack instead of stopping it.

Exactly what Morbid said. The child’s death is not their fault. What is their faults, is not even attempting to stop this tragedy because they were more concerned for their OWN safety. It was self-preservation, not any assessment and a logical decision. It was cowardly. Its disgusting. Its sickening to the point of my stomach physically hurts.

And one last thing, the fireman pulled his badge and ordered him to stop – WTH? This wanna be cop, pulled his badge in an effort to appear to be LE. This was not a fire and clearly this man didn’t give a fat rat’s ass about anyone watching, LE or not. So instead of even allowing the bastard to know he was on the scene, why didn’t the fireman SNEAK attack him from behind? Oh, I know the answer, “he appeared dangerous”. Please!

Nothing you can say will ever have me not questioning the fact that adults stood and watched a man calmly kick a baby 100 times and did nothing to stop it aside from asking him to stop. Dead baby or not. I don’t blame these people for the baby being dead, it just makes me shake my head in disgust at what society has been molded into, when people will watch a man kick a baby around like a giant Hacky Sack instead of stopping it.

Morbid, that is why you are and always will be the “Man”. Dude, I love ya, even if you are an asshole at times. (sending me the box of shit was not funny, man)

Harley. Brother, if I were getting my ass beat, I would hope that someone, one goddamn person would do something to stop it. Dude, I have been in a situation where I was getting my ass mauled by my ex-husband, many people passed me by and no one. Not one motherfucker helped me. I vowed that day, if I ever saw someone getting the shit knocked out of them, I would stop and help. It is horrible screaming for help and people too motherfucking afraid to do shit about it.

Even if this baby was dead, ripped apart, whatever. How could anyone sit there and allow it to continue to happen? I could not. Plain and simple. I have jumped in between strangers fighting, and I’ve had my ass kicked. …..I also stopped the other person from getting beat worse.

Again, I know no one can positively say what they would do or wouldn’t do in a horrid situation. I just am going by past life experiences here, I would want someone to help me, or my family, so I would in turn help someone else.

That’s just me, and yes I am fucking crazy and one day it will probably be the death of me.

Nothing you can say will ever have me not questioning the fact that adults stood and watched a man calmly kick a baby 100 times and did nothing to stop it aside from asking him to stop. Dead baby or not. I don’t blame these people for the baby being dead, it just makes me shake my head in disgust at what society has been molded into, when people will watch a man kick a baby around like a giant Hacky Sack instead of stopping it.

Morbid, that is why you are and always will be the “Man”. Dude, I love ya, even if you are an asshole at times. (sending me the box of shit was not funny, man)

Harley. Brother, if I were getting my ass beat, I would hope that someone, one goddamn person would do something to stop it. Dude, I have been in a situation where I was getting my ass mauled by my ex-husband, many people passed me by and no one. Not one motherfucker helped me. I vowed that day, if I ever saw someone getting the shit knocked out of them, I would stop and help. It is horrible screaming for help and people too motherfucking afraid to do shit about it.

Even if this baby was dead, ripped apart, whatever. How could anyone sit there and allow it to continue to happen? I could not. Plain and simple. I have jumped in between strangers fighting, and I’ve had my ass kicked. …..I also stopped the other person from getting beat worse.

Again, I know no one can positively say what they would do or wouldn’t do in a horrid situation. I just am going by past life experiences here, I would want someone to help me, or my family, so I would in turn help someone else.

That’s just me, and yes I am fucking crazy and one day it will probably be the death of me.

Oh, and another thing, I know that I talk a lot of shit about cops, but I must say that Officer Ramar, you are my hero! Thank god that there are people like you in this world

And I always bash on the cops, so I must second that statement, solange. Good call Officer Ramar. Thank you for doing your job and much respect!

Oh, and another thing, I know that I talk a lot of shit about cops, but I must say that Officer Ramar, you are my hero! Thank god that there are people like you in this world

And I always bash on the cops, so I must second that statement, solange. Good call Officer Ramar. Thank you for doing your job and much respect!

That’s just me, and yes I am fucking crazy and one day it will probably be the death of me.

Me too, Hippie. Me, too.

That’s just me, and yes I am fucking crazy and one day it will probably be the death of me.

Me too, Hippie. Me, too.

The worst part of the story is Lisa Mota crying about needing to see a counselor and acting like she’s a victim. Have fun in Hell Mota, I’m sure you’ll be sitting next to the rest of the degenerates who watched a man kick a babies head in.

Pooh, I know how you feel about your stomach hurting. Every now and then there is one story that just hits me so much harder than the rest. And I don’t mean to downplay the other horrors that many babies on this site face each day, but for some reason some hit home for me more than others. This is one of them. How I wish I could have been there, even if it wouldn’t have helped Little Sergio, but to at least show that someone out there cares And to tell the other witnesses how disgusted I am by them!!!!

Pooh, I know how you feel about your stomach hurting. Every now and then there is one story that just hits me so much harder than the rest. And I don’t mean to downplay the other horrors that many babies on this site face each day, but for some reason some hit home for me more than others. This is one of them. How I wish I could have been there, even if it wouldn’t have helped Little Sergio, but to at least show that someone out there cares And to tell the other witnesses how disgusted I am by them!!!!

Ya know, if I had stood and watched this and had not ACTIVELY tried to stop it, I would need to see a counselor, too. I would have to know why I was such a chicken shit. I would have to know how any adult can put their well being above an innocent child’s. I really would have to have those questions answered.

Ya know, if I had stood and watched this and had not ACTIVELY tried to stop it, I would need to see a counselor, too. I would have to know why I was such a chicken shit. I would have to know how any adult can put their well being above an innocent child’s. I really would have to have those questions answered.

Pooh, I know how you feel about your stomach hurting. Every now and then there is one story that just hits me so much harder than the rest. And I don’t mean to downplay the other horrors that many babies on this site face each day, but for some reason some hit home for me more than others. This is one of them. How I wish I could have been there, even if it wouldn’t have helped Little Sergio, but to at least show that someone out there cares And to tell the other witnesses how disgusted I am by them!!!!

Yeah, I know what you mean. I may not have been able to save the poor little guy, but I would have been trying. He would have seen at least one person fighting to save him. He would have known “He was worth it!”

Rowan, Riley, Benjamin, and now little Sergio – I like you, don’t mean to make light of any others featured on here, but these guys make my heart hurt. These guys go home with me at night and even visit my dreams – I don’t mean any bullshit there, either. I mean I dream about them and what happened to them.

My husband says if I don’t lay off of the DD, he’s gonna call work and tell them to block it. I do take entirely too much of this home with me. Hell, I care. I can’t just pretend this was something to leave at work. This is also a reason you never see me post after work or on weekends – its family time. I can’t be worrying about what new development cropped up while I was making the pizza. I give the DD 40 hours a week, and I have to tell you, I think that is all my heart and head can stand.

Pooh, I know how you feel about your stomach hurting. Every now and then there is one story that just hits me so much harder than the rest. And I don’t mean to downplay the other horrors that many babies on this site face each day, but for some reason some hit home for me more than others. This is one of them. How I wish I could have been there, even if it wouldn’t have helped Little Sergio, but to at least show that someone out there cares And to tell the other witnesses how disgusted I am by them!!!!

Yeah, I know what you mean. I may not have been able to save the poor little guy, but I would have been trying. He would have seen at least one person fighting to save him. He would have known “He was worth it!”

Rowan, Riley, Benjamin, and now little Sergio – I like you, don’t mean to make light of any others featured on here, but these guys make my heart hurt. These guys go home with me at night and even visit my dreams – I don’t mean any bullshit there, either. I mean I dream about them and what happened to them.

My husband says if I don’t lay off of the DD, he’s gonna call work and tell them to block it. I do take entirely too much of this home with me. Hell, I care. I can’t just pretend this was something to leave at work. This is also a reason you never see me post after work or on weekends – its family time. I can’t be worrying about what new development cropped up while I was making the pizza. I give the DD 40 hours a week, and I have to tell you, I think that is all my heart and head can stand.

Fuck me !!

I go away for a few days and some stupid asstard does this shit…
I’m sickened..
I’m just gonna go cry on my spreadsheets now…

Damn…..that poor baby…

Fuck me !!

I go away for a few days and some stupid asstard does this shit…
I’m sickened..
I’m just gonna go cry on my spreadsheets now…

Damn…..that poor baby…

Fuck me !!

I go away for a few days and some stupid asstard does this shit…
I’m sickened..
I’m just gonna go cry on my spreadsheets now…

Damn…..that poor baby…

Harley. Brother, if I were getting my ass beat, I would hope that someone, one goddamn person would do something to stop it. Dude, I have been in a situation where I was getting my ass mauled by my ex-husband, many people passed me by and no one. Not one motherfucker helped me. I vowed that day, if I ever saw someone getting the shit knocked out of them, I would stop and help. It is horrible screaming for help and people too motherfucking afraid to do shit about it.

I agree with you Hip. I would have done something, just reacted and helped this poor baby out. I would maybe die trying but oh well, maybe if all of them got together and made a joint action to help this baby, he would be alive today.

Ya know, I know someone that was being beaten by their boyfriend, he stopped the car and she got out, ran down a street knocked on a door, he was still behind her, a woman answered, this girl asks the woman if she can just call 911 for her, ya know what she says? She says “No, because then the cops will come here.” And she didn’t want that at her house. Nevermind the girl with the black eyes, just what would the fucking neighbors think. Sad. That girl turned to the woman and said, “If he kills me, you helped him.”

Harley. Brother, if I were getting my ass beat, I would hope that someone, one goddamn person would do something to stop it. Dude, I have been in a situation where I was getting my ass mauled by my ex-husband, many people passed me by and no one. Not one motherfucker helped me. I vowed that day, if I ever saw someone getting the shit knocked out of them, I would stop and help. It is horrible screaming for help and people too motherfucking afraid to do shit about it.

I agree with you Hip. I would have done something, just reacted and helped this poor baby out. I would maybe die trying but oh well, maybe if all of them got together and made a joint action to help this baby, he would be alive today.

Ya know, I know someone that was being beaten by their boyfriend, he stopped the car and she got out, ran down a street knocked on a door, he was still behind her, a woman answered, this girl asks the woman if she can just call 911 for her, ya know what she says? She says “No, because then the cops will come here.” And she didn’t want that at her house. Nevermind the girl with the black eyes, just what would the fucking neighbors think. Sad. That girl turned to the woman and said, “If he kills me, you helped him.”

The fact that a police officer SHOT and killed a man who was no threat to the officer because why? Right. He was beating a baby. Alive? Dead? Didn’t matter to the cop. If an officer of the law saw a scene in which he thought that deadly force was the only option, than I can safely assume that I would have thought the same thing. Thank god he did not take the time to investigate the cab of the truck, or the condition of the baby, before making that decision, throwing his hands up and stating “Fuck it, the fucking thing is dead anyway”.

Morbid, you just made Harley’s point. A police officer who has been trained in how to deal with perps used his gun to kill the guy because he thought DEADLY force was the ONLY option. He didn’t tackle the guy or do anything less than shoot him dead because anything less was not enough.

I hope you all get the opportunity to act on your statements here. There are terrible things that happen every day and the world’s victims need heros.

As I said, I’d like to believe that I’d have tried to be effective in this situation. I am the sort of person who runs over to see what the trouble is and how I can make a difference. But I’m not going to claim that my courage wouldn’t fail me in this case. I’ve never seen anything like this and a “calm” maniac is not necessarily less frightening than a frantic one. Maybe it’s an argument for people to carry guns. It could have saved the poor little child if someone had shot the guy at the beginning of this horror.

The fact that a police officer SHOT and killed a man who was no threat to the officer because why? Right. He was beating a baby. Alive? Dead? Didn’t matter to the cop. If an officer of the law saw a scene in which he thought that deadly force was the only option, than I can safely assume that I would have thought the same thing. Thank god he did not take the time to investigate the cab of the truck, or the condition of the baby, before making that decision, throwing his hands up and stating “Fuck it, the fucking thing is dead anyway”.

Morbid, you just made Harley’s point. A police officer who has been trained in how to deal with perps used his gun to kill the guy because he thought DEADLY force was the ONLY option. He didn’t tackle the guy or do anything less than shoot him dead because anything less was not enough.

I hope you all get the opportunity to act on your statements here. There are terrible things that happen every day and the world’s victims need heros.

As I said, I’d like to believe that I’d have tried to be effective in this situation. I am the sort of person who runs over to see what the trouble is and how I can make a difference. But I’m not going to claim that my courage wouldn’t fail me in this case. I’ve never seen anything like this and a “calm” maniac is not necessarily less frightening than a frantic one. Maybe it’s an argument for people to carry guns. It could have saved the poor little child if someone had shot the guy at the beginning of this horror.

The officer was behind an electric fence. He ran right to where Aguiar was and ordered him to stop and Aguiar did not. That is when he made the choice to shoot him, in an attempt to save that baby. I am sure if that fence had not been in the way, the story would have been quite different.

I am glad to know that the officer ran right over to help that child and did the only thing he could behind that fence instead of wasting time trying to find a way out to address this guy and properly detain him.

The articles state that a truck full of people in their 20s were there, a husband a wife with their two grown children, and a woman driving to her parents’ house. All of these people together couldn’t make a difference in this situation?

They said the baby died on his way to the hospital. How horrible. That leads me to believe that maybe something those people could have done while they waited those 6 and a half minutes for the police, could have changed the outcome of this situation. That child may have been seriously injured but alive. A mother may not be burying her child while all the witnesses have the opportunity and reassurance to go home to their loved ones.

These people sat in the safety of their vehicles and just kept placing calls to the police department. They determined that the child was already ‘dead’ even though he wasn’t and the fact that they just sat there and watched this horrible crime take place is hard to imagine. If you know you can’t be of any help, how can you sit there and watch someone do something like this? If he was such a threat, why did they stay there? I would have been long gone if I felt that my life would have been in danger. I just don’t know what kind of purpose they were serving just staying to watch.

The officer was behind an electric fence.

Does anyone know, is that the fence we see in the photo? (I mean, it could be a fence on the other side of the street, too.)

The officer was behind an electric fence.

Does anyone know, is that the fence we see in the photo? (I mean, it could be a fence on the other side of the street, too.)

hm, I didn’t see anything to specify where the fence was or anything, I just assumed it is the fence in the picture.

hm, I didn’t see anything to specify where the fence was or anything, I just assumed it is the fence in the picture.

Even if this baby was dead, ripped apart, whatever. How could anyone sit there and allow it to continue to happen? I could not. Plain and simple. I have jumped in between strangers fighting, and I’ve had my ass kicked. …..I also stopped the other person from getting beat worse.

I absolutely agree with you. This is how I tend to react in those situations (at least that’s how I’ve reacted in the past when it was someone I knew being attacked).

Harley. Brother, if I were getting my ass beat, I would hope that someone, one goddamn person would do something to stop it. Dude, I have been in a situation where I was getting my ass mauled by my ex-husband, many people passed me by and no one. Not one motherfucker helped me. I vowed that day, if I ever saw someone getting the shit knocked out of them, I would stop and help. It is horrible screaming for help and people too motherfucking afraid to do shit about it.

Of course to play Devil’s Advocate for a moment, my boyfriend has witnessed a number of incidences of “domestic abuse” in a bar he bounced in. He stepped in the first few times, but after having the girlfriend jump him from behind as he tried to restrain their boyfriend from beating the shit out of her, (more than once) he tends to hang back now. Of course the difference is, when he hangs back the women are just getting slapped around, not getting the shit beaten out of them. All I’m saying is that it’s not unheard of for the “rescued victim” to turn on the would be rescuer for attacking their penis.

Even if this baby was dead, ripped apart, whatever. How could anyone sit there and allow it to continue to happen? I could not. Plain and simple. I have jumped in between strangers fighting, and I’ve had my ass kicked. …..I also stopped the other person from getting beat worse.

I absolutely agree with you. This is how I tend to react in those situations (at least that’s how I’ve reacted in the past when it was someone I knew being attacked).

Harley. Brother, if I were getting my ass beat, I would hope that someone, one goddamn person would do something to stop it. Dude, I have been in a situation where I was getting my ass mauled by my ex-husband, many people passed me by and no one. Not one motherfucker helped me. I vowed that day, if I ever saw someone getting the shit knocked out of them, I would stop and help. It is horrible screaming for help and people too motherfucking afraid to do shit about it.

Of course to play Devil’s Advocate for a moment, my boyfriend has witnessed a number of incidences of “domestic abuse” in a bar he bounced in. He stepped in the first few times, but after having the girlfriend jump him from behind as he tried to restrain their boyfriend from beating the shit out of her, (more than once) he tends to hang back now. Of course the difference is, when he hangs back the women are just getting slapped around, not getting the shit beaten out of them. All I’m saying is that it’s not unheard of for the “rescued victim” to turn on the would be rescuer for attacking their penis.

Seems the community must have even more outrage at this than we do (if that’s even possible). I honestly can only say what I would do as a witness to the seven minutes that this happened in… not what I actually would do. Looks like some folks where frozen in shock.

Inaction in boy’s killing called justified
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/06/18/BA2G11ARO9.DTL

I hope that there was nothing any of them could do because the thought that they could have done something and didn’t is horrifying.

Seems the community must have even more outrage at this than we do (if that’s even possible). I honestly can only say what I would do as a witness to the seven minutes that this happened in… not what I actually would do. Looks like some folks where frozen in shock.

Inaction in boy’s killing called justified
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/06/18/BA2G11ARO9.DTL

I hope that there was nothing any of them could do because the thought that they could have done something and didn’t is horrifying.

Of course to play Devil’s Advocate for a moment, my boyfriend has witnessed a number of incidences of “domestic abuse” in a bar he bounced in. He stepped in the first few times, but after having the girlfriend jump him from behind as he tried to restrain their boyfriend from beating the shit out of her, (more than once) he tends to hang back now. Of course the difference is, when he hangs back the women are just getting slapped around, not getting the shit beaten out of them. All I’m saying is that it’s not unheard of for the “rescued victim” to turn on the would be rescuer for attacking their penis.

I get what you’re saying, but in this case, I am pretty sure that baby Sergio was not gonna kick anyone’s ass for trying to save his life.

All I know is, I’d gladly do a little jail time for assault with a tire iron if it meant getting between that guy and the baby he was killing. The dude was calm enough, at one point, to help a bystander TURN ON HIS EMERGENCY FLASHERS. Could nobody in that moment have grabbed that baby and run? Could nobody in that moment have knocked the dude out with a rock to the back of the head? Could nobody have shielded that baby’s body with their own? I’d have taken a few of those hundred or so kicks just to keep the guy off his child.

I don’t know how any of those witnesses will be able to sleep at night, because what IF they’d stopped Sergio Aguiar sooner? Would a child be alive? Maybe, maybe not, but at least they wouldn’t be wondering.

Of course to play Devil’s Advocate for a moment, my boyfriend has witnessed a number of incidences of “domestic abuse” in a bar he bounced in. He stepped in the first few times, but after having the girlfriend jump him from behind as he tried to restrain their boyfriend from beating the shit out of her, (more than once) he tends to hang back now. Of course the difference is, when he hangs back the women are just getting slapped around, not getting the shit beaten out of them. All I’m saying is that it’s not unheard of for the “rescued victim” to turn on the would be rescuer for attacking their penis.

I get what you’re saying, but in this case, I am pretty sure that baby Sergio was not gonna kick anyone’s ass for trying to save his life.

All I know is, I’d gladly do a little jail time for assault with a tire iron if it meant getting between that guy and the baby he was killing. The dude was calm enough, at one point, to help a bystander TURN ON HIS EMERGENCY FLASHERS. Could nobody in that moment have grabbed that baby and run? Could nobody in that moment have knocked the dude out with a rock to the back of the head? Could nobody have shielded that baby’s body with their own? I’d have taken a few of those hundred or so kicks just to keep the guy off his child.

I don’t know how any of those witnesses will be able to sleep at night, because what IF they’d stopped Sergio Aguiar sooner? Would a child be alive? Maybe, maybe not, but at least they wouldn’t be wondering.

Of course to play Devil’s Advocate for a moment, my boyfriend has witnessed a number of incidences of “domestic abuse” in a bar he bounced in. He stepped in the first few times, but after having the girlfriend jump him from behind as he tried to restrain their boyfriend from beating the shit out of her, (more than once) he tends to hang back now. Of course the difference is, when he hangs back the women are just getting slapped around, not getting the shit beaten out of them. All I’m saying is that it’s not unheard of for the “rescued victim” to turn on the would be rescuer for attacking their penis.

I get what you’re saying, but in this case, I am pretty sure that baby Sergio was not gonna kick anyone’s ass for trying to save his life.

All I know is, I’d gladly do a little jail time for assault with a tire iron if it meant getting between that guy and the baby he was killing. The dude was calm enough, at one point, to help a bystander TURN ON HIS EMERGENCY FLASHERS. Could nobody in that moment have grabbed that baby and run? Could nobody in that moment have knocked the dude out with a rock to the back of the head? Could nobody have shielded that baby’s body with their own? I’d have taken a few of those hundred or so kicks just to keep the guy off his child.

I don’t know how any of those witnesses will be able to sleep at night, because what IF they’d stopped Sergio Aguiar sooner? Would a child be alive? Maybe, maybe not, but at least they wouldn’t be wondering.

Well, as I stated before, had I been there the outcome may have been no different in regards to the baby or Aguiar, but here are three outcomes for me.

1. Deemed a hero for tackling the guy
2. Deemed a hero from my hospital bed for tackling the guy and getting hurt.
3. Deemed a hero for tackling the guy, and not even knowing ’cause I am dead

But one scenario that I would never have to go through, is what these witnesses are going through now…having to explain why they watched a man beat his deadalive son for seven minutes. That thought would have entered my brain fairly quickly and broken any type of fear or shock I may have initially been in from witnessing the event.

Where not talking about stopping a gang fight, or being in a store when it is robbed, or being in the vicinity of a man beating his wife…we are talking about one man calmly stomping an infant on a country road. Two people could have gotten the tire ironjack that comes standard in any of the vehicles they were riding in, and beat the living shit out of this guy…at least long enough for someone to grab that baby, get in a car and drive away.

The fact that the infant seemed “gone” is such a cop-out explanation. With that mentality, I guess it would have been perfectly ok to set the thing on fire and roasted hot dogs over the flaming corpse while they waited for the police. I mean, it’s dead, right?

Well, as I stated before, had I been there the outcome may have been no different in regards to the baby or Aguiar, but here are three outcomes for me.

1. Deemed a hero for tackling the guy
2. Deemed a hero from my hospital bed for tackling the guy and getting hurt.
3. Deemed a hero for tackling the guy, and not even knowing ’cause I am dead

But one scenario that I would never have to go through, is what these witnesses are going through now…having to explain why they watched a man beat his deadalive son for seven minutes. That thought would have entered my brain fairly quickly and broken any type of fear or shock I may have initially been in from witnessing the event.

Where not talking about stopping a gang fight, or being in a store when it is robbed, or being in the vicinity of a man beating his wife…we are talking about one man calmly stomping an infant on a country road. Two people could have gotten the tire ironjack that comes standard in any of the vehicles they were riding in, and beat the living shit out of this guy…at least long enough for someone to grab that baby, get in a car and drive away.

The fact that the infant seemed “gone” is such a cop-out explanation. With that mentality, I guess it would have been perfectly ok to set the thing on fire and roasted hot dogs over the flaming corpse while they waited for the police. I mean, it’s dead, right?

The fact that the infant seemed “gone” is such a cop-out explanation. With that mentality, I guess it would have been perfectly ok to set the thing on fire and roasted hot dogs over the flaming corpse while they waited for the police. I mean, it’s dead, right?

100 percent in agreement here. You know what? If that WAS me, and I had been shocked enough not to do anything, I would be more ashamed of myself than anyone else could be. It doesn’t appear to me that these people are. I am ecstatic to read the article that many in the community are asking the same questions. We all should, as a society. Although I understand the psychologist’s point of view, it’s still not enough for me to let these people off the hook. Yeah, maybe they aren’t “evil” or anything, but they are still cowards.

The fact that the infant seemed “gone” is such a cop-out explanation. With that mentality, I guess it would have been perfectly ok to set the thing on fire and roasted hot dogs over the flaming corpse while they waited for the police. I mean, it’s dead, right?

100 percent in agreement here. You know what? If that WAS me, and I had been shocked enough not to do anything, I would be more ashamed of myself than anyone else could be. It doesn’t appear to me that these people are. I am ecstatic to read the article that many in the community are asking the same questions. We all should, as a society. Although I understand the psychologist’s point of view, it’s still not enough for me to let these people off the hook. Yeah, maybe they aren’t “evil” or anything, but they are still cowards.

Hey Rob, is this your article?

http://www.red-alerts.com/un-american-activities/degenerate-californians-stood-and-watched-sergio-casian-aguiar-kick-his-infant-son-to-death/

I didn’t know you had a blog. Im reading it now…

Hey Rob, is this your article?

http://www.red-alerts.com/un-american-activities/degenerate-californians-stood-and-watched-sergio-casian-aguiar-kick-his-infant-son-to-death/

I didn’t know you had a blog. Im reading it now…

I didn’t know you had a blog. Im reading it now…

Rob is one of the few bloggers who references our articles on occasion and actually *gasp* provides a link back to us. Me and Imp like him a lot and why his blog was added to our Approved Links section.

Morbid, you just made Harley’s point. A police officer who has been trained in how to deal with perps used his gun to kill the guy because he thought DEADLY force was the ONLY option. He didn’t tackle the guy or do anything less than shoot him dead because anything less was not enough.

I absolutely disagree. The point the Morbid made is deadly force was necessary, therefore the child NEEDED immediate help from any able bodied person. And, deadly force is not always defined as shooting the perp with a gun. Deadly force can be what ever means are necessary – such as bashing the perp with the officer’s nightstick or baton until he stops and then he may die. Deadly force could be “tasing” them to death. Deadly force can be 5 officers beating a perp and never drawing their service weapon. Deadly force just means they can use any means, even killing the bastard, to get the job done.

To the part of shooting him dead because “nothing less” would have worked – I disagree, again. With all of the kicking and stomping going on and his refusal to stop, I feel the officer made the determination that he did not have TIME to run and jump or go around the fence and get to the baby quick enough to save him. I think the officer felt that a child that small couldn’t stand not ONE more kick from that bastard and that he needed to be stopped immediately – not wait for kick number 101 to decide, “ok, that’s too far, he now has to stop”.

The officer decided IMMEDIATE action was needed if this child were to have a chance of living. Now to the “trained officer” part – yes, he is a trained officer but he is still a human with a brain that makes decisions. I say all the other “humans”, trained or not, could have used their brains, and by all accounts did and assessed this prick was going to kill that child. They KNEW he needed help right then and there – they were just too afraid as he “appeared dangerous”.

Just like I posted yesterday, if you know an ADULT is going to KILL a CHILD, that shoud be all you need to know to decide YOU MUST intervene. You MUST get off of your ass and risk your ass to save a child. Anything less, from ANY able bodied adult is cowardice and nothing more than self preservation. Whether you win or lose, live or die means NOTHING! You have to try to help that child – you just have too.

You have to display the human decency to be willing to fight for those who cannot, especially children, fight for themselves. When you’re the victim, you will be praying that someone – anyone will lend a hand. And, when they don’t help you, you will know why it is ssssoooooooo wrong not to help. Why its ssssoooooooooo wrong to just be a “good witness” for the victim without even trying to help – because you are thinking ONLY of yourself and your well-being.

I hope you all get the opportunity to act on your statements here. There are terrible things that happen every day and the world’s victims need heros.

Wry, I really don’t know how to take that statement, but I’m gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that I misunderstood. I have had the opportunity to act in situations that were NONE OF MY BUSINESS to help a weaker person. In fact, I must be a shit magnet because I have helped quite a few people in various situations and varying degrees of danger. Won some, lost some. Even had to go to the hospital for a couple of days, once. Am I sorry? Hell, no! Would I do it again? Hell, yes! Was it worth it? Hell yes! – even when I stayed in the hospital a couple of days.

Wry, I hope that you were implying that IF there were to be a victim, that maybe one of us would be there to help. If that is what you meant, then I’m cool with your statement. When I first read it, it was almost like you wished this shit would happen just to see if we meant what we said. I would really hate to think that you could wish there would be victims just to test us on our word. I have to have misread and surely, my first scenario is how you meant it.

Here is the thing that bothers me most. All the rage and anger is being directed at witnesses and passer by’s. This is so common when tragedy like this strikes because we all want to believe something could have prevented this, if only we had been there this wouldn’t have ended this way etc. That’s a lovely theory and it is how many rationalize violence like this. Believe me I wish with all my heart this had not happened but I have no fantasy that I know of some way that it would not have. here is a little blurb from an article about this crime.
The town of Turlock and much of the rest of the nation was shocked when a 27-year-old man beat and stomped his 2-year-old son to death on a rural road. But what was nearly as stunning for many people was that none of the motorists and their passengers who stopped and saw the attack tried to tackle the man.
Police officers and psychologists familiar with violent emergencies, however, said they weren’t surprised at all.
A volunteer firefighter and at least five others saw Sergio Casian Aguiar assaulting his son Saturday night on the road west of Turlock (Stanislaus County), but it wasn’t until a police officer arrived in a helicopter that the attack finally ended. Aguiar refused to halt the attack and raised his middle finger at the officer, who shot him to death, authorities said.

Bystanders are justifiably scared and confused in such situations, the experts said Wednesday, and they lack the experience needed to respond with force. They can also be mesmerized by shock.

John Conaty, a veteran homicide detective and former patrol officer in Pittsburg, said that in interviews of witnesses to violence, “the common thing you hear is, ‘I was frozen in fear. I just couldn’t take action.’ ”

Conaty questioned whether the witnesses had even been capable of stopping Aguiar. “If they were physically able, you have to take a look at whether they were psychologically prepared to intervene,” he said.

“I would not condemn these people,” said John Darley, a professor of psychology and public affairs at Princeton University who has studied how bystanders react in emergency situations. “Ordinary people aren’t going to tackle a psychotic.

“What we have here,” Darley said, “is a group of family and friends who are not pre-organized to deal with this stuff. They don’t know who should do what. … If you had five volunteer firefighters pull up, you would expect them to have planned responses and a division of labor. But that’s not what we had here.”

Darley said he was also not surprised that people who weren’t at the scene of the killing believe they would have been heroic Good Samaritans.

“It’s an aspiration,” he said. “They hope they would have done differently.”

People who are second-guessing her and her family can “never know until they’re in that situation,” McKain said. “We would have loved to knock his head off, too, but we had nothing to knock it off with.”

Deputy Royjindar Singh, a spokesman for the Stanislaus County Sheriff’s Department, acknowledged there was some “Monday morning quarterbacking” taking place, but said his agency had no problem with the actions of the witnesses.”

Now you can all say what you THINK you would have done but unless you have driven up on the exact same scene you just don’t know.

Let’s try to remember these witnesses didn’t kill this boy his FATHER did and he deserves all the anger and rage.

Here is the thing that bothers me most. All the rage and anger is being directed at witnesses and passer by’s. This is so common when tragedy like this strikes because we all want to believe something could have prevented this, if only we had been there this wouldn’t have ended this way etc. That’s a lovely theory and it is how many rationalize violence like this. Believe me I wish with all my heart this had not happened but I have no fantasy that I know of some way that it would not have. here is a little blurb from an article about this crime.
The town of Turlock and much of the rest of the nation was shocked when a 27-year-old man beat and stomped his 2-year-old son to death on a rural road. But what was nearly as stunning for many people was that none of the motorists and their passengers who stopped and saw the attack tried to tackle the man.
Police officers and psychologists familiar with violent emergencies, however, said they weren’t surprised at all.
A volunteer firefighter and at least five others saw Sergio Casian Aguiar assaulting his son Saturday night on the road west of Turlock (Stanislaus County), but it wasn’t until a police officer arrived in a helicopter that the attack finally ended. Aguiar refused to halt the attack and raised his middle finger at the officer, who shot him to death, authorities said.

Bystanders are justifiably scared and confused in such situations, the experts said Wednesday, and they lack the experience needed to respond with force. They can also be mesmerized by shock.

John Conaty, a veteran homicide detective and former patrol officer in Pittsburg, said that in interviews of witnesses to violence, “the common thing you hear is, ‘I was frozen in fear. I just couldn’t take action.’ ”

Conaty questioned whether the witnesses had even been capable of stopping Aguiar. “If they were physically able, you have to take a look at whether they were psychologically prepared to intervene,” he said.

“I would not condemn these people,” said John Darley, a professor of psychology and public affairs at Princeton University who has studied how bystanders react in emergency situations. “Ordinary people aren’t going to tackle a psychotic.

“What we have here,” Darley said, “is a group of family and friends who are not pre-organized to deal with this stuff. They don’t know who should do what. … If you had five volunteer firefighters pull up, you would expect them to have planned responses and a division of labor. But that’s not what we had here.”

Darley said he was also not surprised that people who weren’t at the scene of the killing believe they would have been heroic Good Samaritans.

“It’s an aspiration,” he said. “They hope they would have done differently.”

People who are second-guessing her and her family can “never know until they’re in that situation,” McKain said. “We would have loved to knock his head off, too, but we had nothing to knock it off with.”

Deputy Royjindar Singh, a spokesman for the Stanislaus County Sheriff’s Department, acknowledged there was some “Monday morning quarterbacking” taking place, but said his agency had no problem with the actions of the witnesses.”

Now you can all say what you THINK you would have done but unless you have driven up on the exact same scene you just don’t know.

Let’s try to remember these witnesses didn’t kill this boy his FATHER did and he deserves all the anger and rage.

Here is the thing that bothers me most. All the rage and anger is being directed at witnesses and passer by’s. This is so common when tragedy like this strikes because we all want to believe something could have prevented this, if only we had been there this wouldn’t have ended this way etc. That’s a lovely theory and it is how many rationalize violence like this. Believe me I wish with all my heart this had not happened but I have no fantasy that I know of some way that it would not have. here is a little blurb from an article about this crime.
The town of Turlock and much of the rest of the nation was shocked when a 27-year-old man beat and stomped his 2-year-old son to death on a rural road. But what was nearly as stunning for many people was that none of the motorists and their passengers who stopped and saw the attack tried to tackle the man.
Police officers and psychologists familiar with violent emergencies, however, said they weren’t surprised at all.
A volunteer firefighter and at least five others saw Sergio Casian Aguiar assaulting his son Saturday night on the road west of Turlock (Stanislaus County), but it wasn’t until a police officer arrived in a helicopter that the attack finally ended. Aguiar refused to halt the attack and raised his middle finger at the officer, who shot him to death, authorities said.

Bystanders are justifiably scared and confused in such situations, the experts said Wednesday, and they lack the experience needed to respond with force. They can also be mesmerized by shock.

John Conaty, a veteran homicide detective and former patrol officer in Pittsburg, said that in interviews of witnesses to violence, “the common thing you hear is, ‘I was frozen in fear. I just couldn’t take action.’ ”

Conaty questioned whether the witnesses had even been capable of stopping Aguiar. “If they were physically able, you have to take a look at whether they were psychologically prepared to intervene,” he said.

“I would not condemn these people,” said John Darley, a professor of psychology and public affairs at Princeton University who has studied how bystanders react in emergency situations. “Ordinary people aren’t going to tackle a psychotic.

“What we have here,” Darley said, “is a group of family and friends who are not pre-organized to deal with this stuff. They don’t know who should do what. … If you had five volunteer firefighters pull up, you would expect them to have planned responses and a division of labor. But that’s not what we had here.”

Darley said he was also not surprised that people who weren’t at the scene of the killing believe they would have been heroic Good Samaritans.

“It’s an aspiration,” he said. “They hope they would have done differently.”

People who are second-guessing her and her family can “never know until they’re in that situation,” McKain said. “We would have loved to knock his head off, too, but we had nothing to knock it off with.”

Deputy Royjindar Singh, a spokesman for the Stanislaus County Sheriff’s Department, acknowledged there was some “Monday morning quarterbacking” taking place, but said his agency had no problem with the actions of the witnesses.”

Now you can all say what you THINK you would have done but unless you have driven up on the exact same scene you just don’t know.

Let’s try to remember these witnesses didn’t kill this boy his FATHER did and he deserves all the anger and rage.

Thanks, ThePooh5. I was going to reply to that but just said “fuck it.” There just isn’t anything anyone will say to me about this that will change my thoughts on this.

Thanks, ThePooh5. I was going to reply to that but just said “fuck it.” There just isn’t anything anyone will say to me about this that will change my thoughts on this.

“I would not condemn these people,” said John Darley, a professor of psychology and public affairs at Princeton University who has studied how bystanders react in emergency situations. “Ordinary people aren’t going to tackle a psychotic.

From the article linked in post # 120 – all that tells me is he is a professor of chickenshitness. It has nothing to do with “ordinary people”. Hell, I’m as ordinary as the come, plain Jane, even. It has to do with the sense of right and wrong, the responsibility to be a good human being, the responsibility of caring for your fellow man and acting in good faith to save said humanity.

Training doesn’t give you balls, it only trains you. And those without balls, do not seek this type of training nor do they help a child getting stomped to death. And those with balls, don’t need training to act to save a child from an adult stomping him 100 plus times. All they need is to see it, then common human compasion takes over and you get off of your ass and help, without worrying “will I, I, I, I get hurt?”. All any of those people should have been thinking is, “get off that baby you, prick!” and then they should have been fighting tooth and nail with him until he was off of that baby!

You think I wasn’t scared some of the times I intervened? Hell yes, I was. Scared for the victim and myself. But, I decided, that if I didn’t do something, anything this person might die. I quit thinking about myself and decided two of us had a better chance than one and I jumped in. Call me crazy, its a name I’ll claim, especially regarding this type of situation. I call it caring for my fellow man and not being afraid to act on that caring.

“I would not condemn these people,” said John Darley, a professor of psychology and public affairs at Princeton University who has studied how bystanders react in emergency situations. “Ordinary people aren’t going to tackle a psychotic.

From the article linked in post # 120 – all that tells me is he is a professor of chickenshitness. It has nothing to do with “ordinary people”. Hell, I’m as ordinary as the come, plain Jane, even. It has to do with the sense of right and wrong, the responsibility to be a good human being, the responsibility of caring for your fellow man and acting in good faith to save said humanity.

Training doesn’t give you balls, it only trains you. And those without balls, do not seek this type of training nor do they help a child getting stomped to death. And those with balls, don’t need training to act to save a child from an adult stomping him 100 plus times. All they need is to see it, then common human compasion takes over and you get off of your ass and help, without worrying “will I, I, I, I get hurt?”. All any of those people should have been thinking is, “get off that baby you, prick!” and then they should have been fighting tooth and nail with him until he was off of that baby!

You think I wasn’t scared some of the times I intervened? Hell yes, I was. Scared for the victim and myself. But, I decided, that if I didn’t do something, anything this person might die. I quit thinking about myself and decided two of us had a better chance than one and I jumped in. Call me crazy, its a name I’ll claim, especially regarding this type of situation. I call it caring for my fellow man and not being afraid to act on that caring.

Thanks, ThePooh5. I was going to reply to that but just said “fuck it.” There just isn’t anything anyone will say to me about this that will change my thoughts on this.

Well you are more than welcome. Nothing will change my stance on this either. Like you said, “I guess some people can just stand and watch a baby get beat to death and some of us cannot.”

I, like you, cannot say step by step what I would have done. I do know that I would have done something, anything. My past proves it. I also, acknowledge the fact, that I, more than likely, would not have changed the outcome, but I would have damn well tried to my last breathe, my last drop of blood, or until help arrived. I would not have stopped until I could not physically get up off of the ground or the situation was over. I couldn’t have – there was a baby’s life at stake.

That chickenshit professor needs to interview me and the people I have helped. Hell, I don’t know, for once, I/we might be the exception to the rule, in a good way. Maybe watching an adult stomp a child to death is common place with most in the world. Well, this is one time, I’m glad to be the odd duck!

Thanks, ThePooh5. I was going to reply to that but just said “fuck it.” There just isn’t anything anyone will say to me about this that will change my thoughts on this.

Well you are more than welcome. Nothing will change my stance on this either. Like you said, “I guess some people can just stand and watch a baby get beat to death and some of us cannot.”

I, like you, cannot say step by step what I would have done. I do know that I would have done something, anything. My past proves it. I also, acknowledge the fact, that I, more than likely, would not have changed the outcome, but I would have damn well tried to my last breathe, my last drop of blood, or until help arrived. I would not have stopped until I could not physically get up off of the ground or the situation was over. I couldn’t have – there was a baby’s life at stake.

That chickenshit professor needs to interview me and the people I have helped. Hell, I don’t know, for once, I/we might be the exception to the rule, in a good way. Maybe watching an adult stomp a child to death is common place with most in the world. Well, this is one time, I’m glad to be the odd duck!

Thanks, ThePooh5. I was going to reply to that but just said “fuck it.” There just isn’t anything anyone will say to me about this that will change my thoughts on this.

Well you are more than welcome. Nothing will change my stance on this either. Like you said, “I guess some people can just stand and watch a baby get beat to death and some of us cannot.”

I, like you, cannot say step by step what I would have done. I do know that I would have done something, anything. My past proves it. I also, acknowledge the fact, that I, more than likely, would not have changed the outcome, but I would have damn well tried to my last breathe, my last drop of blood, or until help arrived. I would not have stopped until I could not physically get up off of the ground or the situation was over. I couldn’t have – there was a baby’s life at stake.

That chickenshit professor needs to interview me and the people I have helped. Hell, I don’t know, for once, I/we might be the exception to the rule, in a good way. Maybe watching an adult stomp a child to death is common place with most in the world. Well, this is one time, I’m glad to be the odd duck!

You think I wasn’t scared some of the times I intervened? Hell yes, I was. Scared for the victim and myself. But, I decided, that if I didn’t do something, anything this person might die. I quit thinking about myself and decided two of us had a better chance than one and I jumped in. Call me crazy, its a name I’ll claim, especially regarding this type of situation. I call it caring for my fellow man and not being afraid to act on that caring.

It’s wonderful that you think you would have jumped in. We are not all robots and until you are in the same scenario (I’m going to go out on a limb and guess you have never driven up on a psycho in the middle of a country road who is stomping, throwing, kicking and punching a baby.) You cannot say with certainty what you would do. You cannot control the physical and psychological response your body has when you witness something this horrific. That’s a fact of life and it doesn’t make a person a scumbag if they are physically or psychologically incapable of reacting the way you think they should have.

My main point here is that the one who deserves all this rage is the person who killed this poor child. All I am reading here is pages and pages of rage at the witnesses to the extent of wanting them dead.

I’m with Mom on this one. Say what you will about how people should have/would have dealt with this situation, but science simply doesn’t support your judgment.

The fact of the matter is, in extreme situations such as this one, people rarely have their wits about them. So much of your behavior over the course of the event is totally automatic. This is why there is specific “stress” training for soldiers, police and gun owners. This is why self-defense classes are good for women. The only way to KNOW for sure that you would’ve [enter heroic action here] is if you are trained into it (i.e. soldiers placed in gas chambers without masks so they can learn how to react properly when their instinct is screaming “Breathe!”), or if you’ve been in a similar scenario and happened to have reacted the “right” way (which boils down to luck, essentially).

It’s common for women in a rape situation to freeze completely, failing to defend themselves at all. Do you think this is a conscious choice for them? Of course not. Adrenaline does funny things to the human body. We all love the stories about the mom who was able to pick up a car that was pinning her child, or whatever…But we never hear about the far more common result – when adrenaline and trauma renders the individual totally incapable. There’s no consciously overriding this without training.

When I hear people talk about how someone else should have responded a certain way to a situation, I know one of two things applies:

1.) You’ve been in a similar situation, responded the “right” way and don’t understand the mechanics of why you did what you did, so you inaccurately credit it to your own conscious.

2.) You haven’t been anywhere near trauma.

I’m with Mom on this one. Say what you will about how people should have/would have dealt with this situation, but science simply doesn’t support your judgment.

The fact of the matter is, in extreme situations such as this one, people rarely have their wits about them. So much of your behavior over the course of the event is totally automatic. This is why there is specific “stress” training for soldiers, police and gun owners. This is why self-defense classes are good for women. The only way to KNOW for sure that you would’ve [enter heroic action here] is if you are trained into it (i.e. soldiers placed in gas chambers without masks so they can learn how to react properly when their instinct is screaming “Breathe!”), or if you’ve been in a similar scenario and happened to have reacted the “right” way (which boils down to luck, essentially).

It’s common for women in a rape situation to freeze completely, failing to defend themselves at all. Do you think this is a conscious choice for them? Of course not. Adrenaline does funny things to the human body. We all love the stories about the mom who was able to pick up a car that was pinning her child, or whatever…But we never hear about the far more common result – when adrenaline and trauma renders the individual totally incapable. There’s no consciously overriding this without training.

When I hear people talk about how someone else should have responded a certain way to a situation, I know one of two things applies:

1.) You’ve been in a similar situation, responded the “right” way and don’t understand the mechanics of why you did what you did, so you inaccurately credit it to your own conscious.

2.) You haven’t been anywhere near trauma.

I’m with Mom on this one. Say what you will about how people should have/would have dealt with this situation, but science simply doesn’t support your judgment.

The fact of the matter is, in extreme situations such as this one, people rarely have their wits about them. So much of your behavior over the course of the event is totally automatic. This is why there is specific “stress” training for soldiers, police and gun owners. This is why self-defense classes are good for women. The only way to KNOW for sure that you would’ve [enter heroic action here] is if you are trained into it (i.e. soldiers placed in gas chambers without masks so they can learn how to react properly when their instinct is screaming “Breathe!”), or if you’ve been in a similar scenario and happened to have reacted the “right” way (which boils down to luck, essentially).

It’s common for women in a rape situation to freeze completely, failing to defend themselves at all. Do you think this is a conscious choice for them? Of course not. Adrenaline does funny things to the human body. We all love the stories about the mom who was able to pick up a car that was pinning her child, or whatever…But we never hear about the far more common result – when adrenaline and trauma renders the individual totally incapable. There’s no consciously overriding this without training.

When I hear people talk about how someone else should have responded a certain way to a situation, I know one of two things applies:

1.) You’ve been in a similar situation, responded the “right” way and don’t understand the mechanics of why you did what you did, so you inaccurately credit it to your own conscious.

2.) You haven’t been anywhere near trauma.

“Evil isn’t just abhorrent acts, it is the absence of doing good. Evil is the loss of knowledge of what is right, honor, integrity, self-sacrifice. When we as a society lose these ideals we allow evil to replace them. It is evil to watch a baby be murdered; it was evil when the Aztecs watched their priests do it on the blood soaked steps of the Temple of the Sun and it was evil on a dark California road when a crowd gathered to witness another child sacrifice.”

It is equally evil for those who should be shamed by those actions to go on with their lives as if they were victims, it dishonors the memory of that poor child and elevates the craven impulse of the coward until it seems acceptable. These people who watched should be publicly shamed, and perhaps made to tend the grave of the child they did nothing to save.”

The above is from Rob’s blog – very well put. I give that a big “second”!

“Update: Julian points out in the comments that other reports claim two of the men wrestled the man but could not stop him, making those witnesses unmanly at best, but brave and deserving of our respect. My opinion of Mota and the people who watched and didn’t help has not changed.”

Also, the above paragraph is from Rob’s blog. For the two who DID wrestle with this guy – my thanks to you and much more respect. I truly appreciate your efforts. Thank you for letting that little guy know you cared enough to attempt to stop his beating. Please disregard any comments about the witnesses, as clearly my comments were not meant for you or the elderly couple that stopped.

“Evil isn’t just abhorrent acts, it is the absence of doing good. Evil is the loss of knowledge of what is right, honor, integrity, self-sacrifice. When we as a society lose these ideals we allow evil to replace them. It is evil to watch a baby be murdered; it was evil when the Aztecs watched their priests do it on the blood soaked steps of the Temple of the Sun and it was evil on a dark California road when a crowd gathered to witness another child sacrifice.”

It is equally evil for those who should be shamed by those actions to go on with their lives as if they were victims, it dishonors the memory of that poor child and elevates the craven impulse of the coward until it seems acceptable. These people who watched should be publicly shamed, and perhaps made to tend the grave of the child they did nothing to save.”

The above is from Rob’s blog – very well put. I give that a big “second”!

“Update: Julian points out in the comments that other reports claim two of the men wrestled the man but could not stop him, making those witnesses unmanly at best, but brave and deserving of our respect. My opinion of Mota and the people who watched and didn’t help has not changed.”

Also, the above paragraph is from Rob’s blog. For the two who DID wrestle with this guy – my thanks to you and much more respect. I truly appreciate your efforts. Thank you for letting that little guy know you cared enough to attempt to stop his beating. Please disregard any comments about the witnesses, as clearly my comments were not meant for you or the elderly couple that stopped.

What a debate.
Any updates on this situation? Is mother saying anything?

I was being completely sarcastic. People may behave differently to different situations…but I would think if you can operate hazard lights, flash badges, count blows…you obviously can react. This wasn’t shock. This wasn’t “paralyzed with fear”, this was cowardice. Until I hear anything differently from what I have heard now, it was plain, simple cowardice.

And a big, AMEN, BROTHER to that!!!!!

I doubt I could have done anything more than shield the child with my body. What I am so certain of, is the fact that I would have been fighting to the end, whatever end may have come to pass. I also have stated that in all likelihood, I would be dead, as well or if lucky, in the hospital. I have no fantasies.

Pooh I believe you are certain you would have done something and I also believe it more than likely would not have changed the outcome other than you may have been killed or injured. I don’t know how you think that would have been a better outcome here though. I doubt your family would think it would have been a better outcome either.

And rest assured my anger is with the murdering bastard, but I will not leave the witnesses or certain witnesses completely blameless. They were there long enough to watch him stomp a baby 100 times. If they were so horrified and not watching the show, why didn’t they just go on down the road after they called 911, clearly they had no intentions of doing anything more, so why watch the horror?

Now really Pooh that is human nature like the car wreck or fire you cannot look away from. That does not mean that anyone who was there and saw what happened did it for enjoyment.

With all due respect, Rob, do you understand the difference between the words “theory” and “hypothesis” in a scienfic context? A theory is a little more than one man’s educated guess. There has to be a significant body of research and evidence for a hypothesis to graduate to theory status. More and more, evidence is mounting to do more than suggest that our behavior is inherent, dictated by preexisting traits and genetic dispositions, rather than environmental factors. ALL new knowledge is moving in this direction. We’re not finding new information that suggests that environment is the determining factor.

Furthermore, you want to compare these witnesses to rapists and pedophiles? Hey, no problem. People with sick or violent tendencies are expected to suppress them, or they get locked up. Most of the time, we don’t even try to change them, but when we do (i.e. rehab) it requires an exhaustive amount of reprogramming that is sometimes unsuccessful. That goes for alcoholics, too.

If you want to apply that same logic to citizens who have the natural compulsion to avoid conflict, it will take a similar level of reprogramming (think mandated military service) that, even then, will sometimes prove unsuccessful. If you want a nation full of heroes, Rob, it’ll take a lot more than a call for people to “man up”. It’s not that easy for those who don’t have it in them.

I don’t feel harshly toward the two who did wrestle with the guy. They did not state at what point they were wrestling with this prick. It may have been just before the police arrived and that’s why they stopped fighting with the POS. I do respect them for trying. Now, if we find out that they tackled him, got thrown off, and gave up then and there and then watched – well they’re back on the shit list. But for now, I have to give them their props for trying to intervene.

Me neither Pooh, at least they tried. I was just trying to say that if they could do it, so could the other folks. When I said that I won’t let these peeps off the hook, I meant the rest of the witnesses, not these two guys.

I was being completely sarcastic. People may behave differently to different situations…but I would think if you can operate hazard lights, flash badges, count blows…you obviously can react. This wasn’t shock. This wasn’t “paralyzed with fear”, this was cowardice. Until I hear anything differently from what I have heard now, it was plain, simple cowardice.

That’s a shame. I thought you were being rational, for once.

Seriously, though, as I stated before, the fireman is exempt. Even if he naturally tended toward avoiding danger, he (theoretically) had the training to overcome such a tendency. As a firefighter, you are trained to jump in. Not in this particular capacity, of course, but trained to react to horrible situations.

That being said, it’s not like there are three options, jump in, freeze or run away. You may be able to do any number of things when faced with a traumatic situation. Being able to do one thing doesn’t automatically mean you can do all of them. It just doesn’t work like that. You may not be able to bring yourself to try and stop, say, an armed intruder, but your physical reaction may allow you to remove other people from danger.

Pooh I believe you are certain you would have done something and I also believe it more than likely would not have changed the outcome other than you may have been killed or injured. I don’t know how you think that would have been a better outcome here though. I doubt your family would think it would have been a better outcome either.

There you go thinking you might know how my family would react. When I had my hospital trip, was my family happy? No. Were they proud of me for helping that boy? Yes. Since I went to the hospital, were they sorry I intervened? No.

Would my family be broken hearted had I died in this situation trying to save a child? Most certainly. Would they have been proud of me? Yes. Would they have wished that I had stayed out of it? No. They would have wanted me to TRY and help that child, no matter the cost. They and I both, would have felt it my duty to try and help that poor baby.

Where do you think I get my values and morals from? Its my family. And had I been one of these witnesses, you can bet they would be asking me “WHY” and “HOW” I just watched and did nothing? They would be ashamed of me, as they should be and as I would.

And to the outcome part, you’re right, I may not have changed a thing. But, what if that bastard had stomped on me instead of a 2 year old child, lets say the last 75 or 80 kicks. Do you not think I was more able to withstand that kind of attack than the child? What if I had taken those last kicks, I may have taken the very kick that caused this little guy to be choking on his own blood? Had I taken the kicks and lived or died, the baby may have lived to see another day.

My adult life for a child’s life, I can live with that. I could not live with the fact I watched and did not try. I would be in the loony bin or worse, suicidal. I don’t think suicide has ever really crossed my mind as an actual possibility, but I think if I watched a child be murdered without acting, I would want to off myself. Now that part IS pure speculation, but I kind of think that’s how I would feel.

Me neither Pooh, at least they tried. I was just trying to say that if they could do it, so could the other folks. When I said that I won’t let these peeps off the hook, I meant the rest of the witnesses, not these two guys.

Sorry, I misunderstood. And, I’m still with you all the way!

I was being completely sarcastic. People may behave differently to different situations…but I would think if you can operate hazard lights, flash badges, count blows…you obviously can react. This wasn’t shock. This wasn’t “paralyzed with fear”, this was cowardice. Until I hear anything differently from what I have heard now, it was plain, simple cowardice.

Good point Morbid. Athena, I may not be as “textbook smart” as you are, but I do think I have enough common sense and compassion to help a child in need. I really think it’s a mistake to try to say that only some people are hardwired to help those in need. And again, I never said that I could have saved the child, but I did say that I damn sure would have tried. I know that I would have done ANYTHING other than sit in my car and watch.

Where do you think I get my values and morals from? Its my family. And had I been one of these witnesses, you can bet they would be asking me “WHY” and “HOW” I just watched and did nothing? They would be ashamed of me, as they should be and as I would.

*Sigh* This is NOT about morals and values even a tiny bit Pooh. Which is the point I have been trying to get across.

There is no comparison there whatsoever Rob. Alcohol can be a dependency or an addiction. Addiction isn’t a choice either which is why when an alcoholic quits drinking he is still an alcoholic. There is no way to train or teach every person in the world how to react when the unforeseen occurs. That is beyond unrealistic.

And waiting for others to take action is a dependency, a choice we as a society make. We learn the behavior these people displayed, including the ineffective attacks the two men who tried to stop Aguier.

For three hundred years Americans reacted swiftly to animal attacks, criminality and war. My grandfather was a man known to kill a poisonous snake in his yard with a rake of whatever is handy. His generation was taught to be prepared, to know that when you step outside you may be called upon to fight, kill or be hurt. Now people are taught to minimize their exposure to risk.

Call me old fashioned but Americans have just gone soft.

I also think addiction is a choice, in that we choose to allow a substance to have power over us. I knew a guy who was in court NA who said that stopping heroin use was easier than he though once he simply took control of his life. Drinking’s the same way.

You want to stay sober; don’t buy liquor. You want to save a baby; don’t watch one die.

Good point Morbid. Athena, I may not be as “textbook smart” as you are, but I do think I have enough common sense and compassion to help a child in need. I really think it’s a mistake to try to say that only some people are hardwired to help those in need. And again, I never said that I could have saved the child, but I did say that I damn sure would have tried. I know that I would have done ANYTHING other than sit in my car and watch.

Wow Solange this response surprises me. You really think all these people have no commom sense or compassion??? Yikes I give up.

I also think addiction is a choice, in that we choose to allow a substance to have power over us. I knew a guy who was in court NA who said that stopping heroin use was easier than he though once he simply took control of his life. Drinking’s the same way.

Well you are free to believe that Rob however, years of scientific research prove otherwise.

You want to stay sober; don’t buy liquor. You want to save a baby; don’t watch one die.

Gosh that’s a lovely simplified statement but it just isn’t reality based. Next time I am at the hospital with family members who have lost a baby I will give them that advice.

Mom, as I’m sure you’re aware, folks want to feel as though their action or inaction during a traumatic situation is somehow the result of their conscience or values; that they’re better than the guy who doesn’t act.

It doesn’t matter if all the evidence in the world points to blue – if red makes them feel better, then red it is.

I just want to say that I love you all dearly and value your opinions. I’m not going to continue to argue about this with everyone because I have no desire to have hard feelings between us.

A little boy is dead and his killer got instant justice (granted I would have prefered he suffer a slow painful death instead of the bullet to the head) and nothing in the world can change that. It is horrible and senseless.

It doesn’t matter if all the evidence in the world points to blue – if red makes them feel better, then red it is.

Exactly, you are right Athena. It is what it is I guess.

Call me old fashioned but Americans have just gone soft.

Yes, Americans are different now than we used to be. Why? Necessity. We live in a safer world than our grandparents did. Our world is more technologically advanced. We have significantly longer lifespans. We don’t need to do in order to experience.

The change in our collective demeanor reflects these truths. If we were the same people that our grandparents were, there’d be no progress. It’s called adaptation. I reckon you’re familiar.

While this is all fine and good, it’s got nothing to do with an individual’s reaction to a traumatic situation. “I knew a guy” will never trump mountains of scientific data that asserts that tendencies are hardwired and that reversing such traits takes effort and success is not guaranteed.

Was there a higher rate of individuals hardwired to act under extreme circumstance when our grandparents roamed? Maybe. They were shorter and had limited life expectancies, too. Maybe there was a higher rate of green eyes, as well. Who knows? But we continue to adapt.

I hope to never live in a world so full of threat that an increased rate of tendency to act under dangerous circumstances is biologically necessary.

It doesn’t matter if all the evidence in the world points to blue – if red makes them feel better, then red it is.

Wow. One “expert” makes a comment and states that all of those witnesses were paralyzed with fear. Where is all of this evidence pointing to blue?

I want to see the data that shows the majority of people will watch in paralyzed fear, as a man stomps and kicks a baby 100 times. And even if you do somehow find that data, and you are right, thank god I am in the red group.

These people were afraid to get hurt. So what. So be it. I hope that they sleep well at night with their decision, and I hope they have been convinced that the baby was long dead before they showed up. I don’t blame them for the baby’s death. It’s just like a lot of people, their inaction sickens me. That wont change.

Ya know, I do see Mom and Athena’s point with the fear validation. However, I think we see it differently due to not fearing this guy.

This man was abusing a child, he had no interest whatsoever in applying any of his force towards an adult – someone his own size who could take him on easily. A witness said they tried to tackle this man and he just simply went back to the child. He had no interest in applying force to an adult. He instead chose to beat something that could not fight back, something so small and vulnerable. To me, that makes this guy a coward. I do not feel fear when faced with a coward. This act instead makes me angry, which is why I believe we would’ve reacted differently to the situation. I don’t know how people could fear such a cowardly man.

Had this guy been fighting with an adult, fighting with a grown man and was kicking the shit out of him, well, I think I could say that I probably would’ve done what these witnesses did. I would’ve been scared out of my mind watching him beat someone like that and would’ve tried to have gotten help. I would never dream of taking him on all by myself I don’t think but I always surprise myself in certain situations.

No, Morbid, it’s not one “expert”. There is an overwhelming amount of data to suggest that people’s behavior in these types of instances is primarily automatic. It’s not a matter of courage or valor like the red group would like to believe, nor is it necessarily a matter of being “paralyzed in fear”. Hardwiring and physiology can result in a wide range of behaviors under these circumstances.

If you want to ignore the science behind a human’s physiological and psychological reaction to an intensely stressful situation, that’s your gig. But who thanks god for being willfully ignorant?

If you want to ignore the science behind a human’s physiological and psychological reaction to an intensely stressful situation, that’s your gig. But who thanks god for being willfully ignorant?

You just spent all this time researching shit linking to the psychological makeup of the brain freaking when heading into the ocean on a passenger plane, or having a gun stuck in your mouth while being car-jacked, or the fear you are having a heart attack, or the fact that someone is walking towards your cubicle shooting your co-workers, or Bubba just hopped off the upper bunk of the jail cell you share and his pants are not on..

If all 5 of these people all had a panic-attack (none had one), or a fight or flight response (they did neither) or an acute stress reaction that left them with select mental faculties to do things like call for help, yell at the man, look for something to hit the man with (that’s right Athena, these people later admitted to looking for something to hit the man with but found nothing), go into the mans truck WITH the man in question…anything that did not require their safety being compromised…well, you can spout out all the well thought out, calculated responses that you want, these people…these FIVE people…cared more for their individual safety and were afraid of the man they outnumbered. They were cowards.

You should be thanking god for people like me. Unlike him or you, I will try to stop shit like that if I come across it. That’s my gig.

Mom of 4, it’s ok, I don’t take any of this personally. I certainly don’t mean to insult anyone with my responses either. We are all bound to disagree at one point or another, it’s only natural. When I stated the comment about having common sense I was really reacting to Athena’s statement about my not knowing the mechanics of the human brain. I wasn’t really saying that in comparison to the witnesses. Maybe they do have common sense, but I must admit that I seriously doubt their compassion at this point.

Bystanders are justifiably scared and confused in such situations, the experts said Wednesday, and they lack the experience needed to respond with force. They can also be mesmerized by shock.

“I would not condemn these people,” said John Darley, a professor of psychology and public affairs at Princeton University who has studied how bystanders react in emergency situations. “Ordinary people aren’t going to tackle a psychotic.

The fact of the matter is, in extreme situations such as this one, people rarely have their wits about them. So much of your behavior over the course of the event is totally automatic. This is why there is specific “stress” training for soldiers, police and gun owners. This is why self-defense classes are good for women. The only way to KNOW for sure that you would’ve [enter heroic action here] is if you are trained into it (i.e. soldiers placed in gas chambers without masks so they can learn how to react properly when their instinct is screaming “Breathe!”), or if you’ve been in a similar scenario and happened to have reacted the “right” way (which boils down to luck, essentially).

It’s common for women in a rape situation to freeze completely, failing to defend themselves at all. Do you think this is a conscious choice for them? Of course not. Adrenaline does funny things to the human body. We all love the stories about the mom who was able to pick up a car that was pinning her child, or whatever…But we never hear about the far more common result – when adrenaline and trauma renders the individual totally incapable. There’s no consciously overriding this without training.

This ate at me all night last night, this reasoning, this proof that people CAN’T help themselves to stand frozen in fear at such horrific acts unless they’ve had the training to deal with such events.

At one point, Momof4 stated how I was completely missing the point – ok lets examine these points.

If we are going to apply this logic and follow it as being correct and right, then just answer one question: WHY DO WE HOLD MOTHERS, EVEN SEVERLY ABUSED MOTHERS, RESPONSIBLE WHEN THEY DO NOT ACT TO SAVE THEIR CHILD FROM HIS ABUSING DADDY?

Hell, they’re “frozen with fear”, “they are scared stiff” and finally, “they have not had the proper training to deal with such horror”. A man repeatedly beating a mother IS NOT proper training on how to take an abuser out. In fact, I would think that it would be training on survival and self-preservation, not pro-active defense. And further, she has been conditioned to take abuse not stop it. So WHY are we holding mothers responsible for not acting to save their children? Just because they gave birth and bare the title “mother”, that doesn’t equip them with the training needed to deal with horrific acts and psychotics nor does it change their predisposition that they were born with. So once again, how are they accountable?

If we are going to ACCEPT this logic, as an EXCUSE for not defending a child, then by your very own logic and reasoning and the concept of “all of us are not born to react, but some are born to just freeze up” – then we need to release all the women who are locked up for not stopping abuse and murder of their children. Clearly they could not make themselves act – your logic, your reasoning. It was in no way their fault that they watched. And, all of us, who have bad mouthed such mothers for not acting, owe them one big fat apology? Do you understand that is essentially what you are saying?

I personally, if I could let any adult slide, I could let an abused, terrified mother off of the hook more quickly than I could 3 grown able bodied men, one with crisis training, if I was going to let anyone off of the hook.

Really, on one hand you are excusing, at least, 3 grown able bodied men for watching a man stomp a child to death – and they did not know what he was capable of. While on the other hand, you are condeming abused mothers, who probably in all reality, are suffering from intense fear and does know exactly just what violence the man is capable of dispensing on her.

If we apply your logic, the mothers are more in the clear than anyone else. Are you ready to change your thoughts on the mothers who do not act? Are you ready to release the ones already convicted, drop all pending charges, and just decide a mother should not be expected to defend her child unless she’s had the proper training? Because the excuses your are allowing for these witnesses, are the same excuses the abused women use in court and NO ONE accepts that excuse and they are held accountable. If society and courts are going to hold obviously terrified mothers responsible, well, these chickshits are damn well accountable. And, if they’re not accountable, neither is any mother who watches her child get abused.

Why does the law only apply to certain people and not all? Why do you think abused, terrified mothers should be held more accountable than the 3 able bodied, non-abused men, one of which was trained for high stress situations? Please explain how you find this acceptable?

If all 5 of these people all had a panic-attack (none had one), or a fight or flight response (they did neither) or an acute stress reaction that left them with select mental faculties to do things like call for help, yell at the man, look for something to hit the man with (that’s right Athena, these people later admitted to looking for something to hit the man with but found nothing), go into the mans truck WITH the man in question…anything that did not require their safety being compromised…well, you can spout out all the well thought out, calculated responses that you want, these people…these FIVE people…cared more for their individual safety and were afraid of the man they outnumbered. They were cowards.

You should be thanking god for people like me. Unlike him or you, I will try to stop shit like that if I come across it. That’s my gig.

Seconding that post, 110%. It came down to caring more about their safety and well being over a helpless baby’s. They are cowards.

Hey, if it helps people sleep at night thinking that their inability to help a 2-year-old are hardwired into them and there is nothing they could have done, so be it. We shouldn’t hold anything against the bystanders who didn’t act, as it wasn’t their fault. And that poor, poor man…the cop should have never killed him…he had mental issues and just couldn’t help but to stomp the brains out of his son.

We shouldn’t hold the man responsible for splitting an infant in two because he was hardwired to stick his dick in it’s ass.

We shouldn’t put the rapist in jail because his brain wires are crossed and he just cannot help himself. We shouldn’t be outraged that he forced that jogger to spread her legs after he blacked both of her eyes…he needs our sympathy and help!

We shouldn’t incarcerate the man you made his wife swallow her front teeth because he has the “drunk gene” and it isn’t his fault he gets violent while feeding his hardwired addiction.

Hell, let’s let EVERYONE out of jail, because their mental makeup makes them incapable of NOT participating in criminal activities.

Let this all be a lesson to you. Go find you a class on how to react to a man stomping the shit out of a baby…you know, the class policeman take. That way, you wont find yourself counting the blows to his face instead of stopping them. Thank God for the policemen…if it weren’t for them protecting us, I just don’t know what I would do. Roll Fucking Eyes.

It has been interesting to read everyone’s ideas, but we can go back and forth for eternity on whether or not people should have certain reactions or would have them or might have them or morally must have them. I am ending my involvement with this thread. Rest in peace, poor child, and may the father never have a moment’s peace from this second onward.

I just want to say that I love you all dearly and value your opinions. I’m not going to continue to argue about this with everyone because I have no desire to have hard feelings between us.

Same to you, Momof4. But I do have to ask one question, how could there be any hard feelings? We are having a discussion, we just happen to be on opposite sides of the table. I value your opinion and your work, as well. I just don’t understand your logic, as you don’t understand mine. No hard feelings could arise, on my end. I may go home scratching my head wondering how you can feel as you do, as I’m sure, you do the same in regards to me, but I would never feel hard at you for disagreeing with me. Much respect to you and Athena, for that matter.

Also, one last thing, as to planned or automatic, I have to say I suffer from both. I thought about this wwwaaaaayyyy too much last night. The examples I gave yesterday, were automatic responses, I do believe. But I have thought of some planned responses – granted they were not of this degree in severity, it was just abuse and I felt I had to do something. Here’s your planned example.

I have no qualms about naming this individual, she is shit and an abusing bitch. Shelia Parsons, USED to come by my house with a friend of mine. I kind of liked Shelia but we were in no way best friends, mercifully. Shelia, is about 3 or 4 inches taller than I am and probably out weighed me by 15 or 20 pounds. She also was raised on a farm and had to work, therefore she was in good shape and strong, probably much stronger than me.

Shelia was caught burning her 3 year old son with cigarettes. When she made bond, I went to her house and left her laying in her yard. Why? Because she burned her child with cigarettes! Some POS that had been seen at my home, was a child abusing bitch that claimed to be my friend. I went for basically 2 reasons. First, to revisit a little pain on that bitch for hurting a baby that had been in my home and that I knew and cared about. Secondly, to make sure she knew she was not welcome back at my house ever and if I ever heard of her hurting this child again, I’d be back and it would be much worse. She signed away her parental rights to her parents.

On a side note to this particular example, her dad beat the every loving hell out of her before he called the cops on her for the burns – he is the person who discovered the burns. She countered and had him arrested for assault on a female. The judge practically laughed her ass out of court. Her dad got a 24 hr sentence which was suspended, and 8 hours community service. The judge explained because he did commit the offense and admitted to beating the hell out of his daughter, that he could not pretend it did not happen, but he was in no way going to punish a man for defending his grandchild, woman or not, and that was the least he could sentence him to.

I will not name the other planned responses that I have committed. But I evidently will act in defense during the crisis or after the fact, if its in defense of a child or to even the score a bit. Whatever, but I will not tolerate such abuse if I can do anything, ANYTHING at all, to stop it.

We all keep asking “what’s wrong with the world today?” Well I have found the answer, APATHY. Finding it acceptable that all those people watched and didn’t try to act is what’s wrong with the world. The acceptance of not expecting people to help others, unless you have given birth, of course, then you are required to act, no matter your fear. You want the world to change. You have to be willing to step up and help it change.

You have to be willing to stop the abuse or evil. And if you’re not willing to step up and face an evil, why should you expect anyone else to step up? I’m willing to step up and face evil, such as this and try to stop it, whether they “appear dangerous” or not. I willing to step in even if “one fear was, he might have something in his pocket” – without thinking about myself, but only the child who most certainly stands less of a chance than I do. Will anyone else join me? If I’m out numbered or out sized and out strengthed, will you just watch as I fight a losing battle alone or will you fight with me, so we can stop an evil from happening? By the applied logic, you will watch me die.

If we apply your logic, the mothers are more in the clear than anyone else. Are you ready to change your thoughts on the mothers who do not act? Are you ready to release the ones already convicted, drop all pending charges, and just decide a mother should not be expected to defend her child unless she’s had the proper training? Because the excuses your are allowing for these witnesses, are the same excuses the abused women use in court and NO ONE accepts that excuse and they are held accountable. If society and courts are going to hold obviously terrified mothers responsible, well, these chickshits are damn well accountable. And, if they’re not accountable, neither is any mother who watches her child get abused.

Excellent point Pooh, you are 100 percent correct, which is why I really don’t agree with Athena’s logic in this case.

You have to be willing to stop the abuse or evil. And if you’re not willing to step up and face an evil, why should you expect anyone else to step up? I’m willing to step up and face evil, such as this and try to stop it, whether they “appear dangerous” or not. I willing to step in even if “one fear was, he might have something in his pocket” – without thinking about myself, but only the child who most certainly stands less of a chance than I do. Will anyone else join me? If I’m out numbered or out sized and out strengthed, will you just watch as I fight a losing battle alone or will you fight with me, so we can stop an evil from happening? By the applied logic, you will watch me die.

I, for one would not sit and watch you die, would not sit and watch a baby being stomped death. I don’t care what my body tells me, I choose to take control of my own actions. I understand being shocked and not understanding what you are seeing before you, but that should wear off about a minute later, at most. Those people apparently stood around watching for much longer than that.

I, for one would not sit and watch you die, would not sit and watch a baby being stomped death. I don’t care what my body tells me, I choose to take control of my own actions. I understand being shocked and not understanding what you are seeing before you, but that should wear off about a minute later, at most. Those people apparently stood around watching for much longer than that.

Thanks, solange, I truly don’t believe you would just watch. We may not win, but I do believe you would step in and do whatever you could.

You know, had the fireman and the other two males kept on fight with the guy, the guy would have had NO CHOICE but to fight the fireman and them back, instead of beating on the baby. I mean honestly, had the fireman repeatedly punched the attacker in the back of the head, do you think the guy would have kept kicking the baby or would he have turned around and stopped the fireman from hitting him.

I very seriously doubt that anyone would have witnessed the fireman hit the man, the man in turn kick the baby and back and forth, on and on. Ya know, he would have got distracted from stomping the child, at some point and went to fighting his attacker, which should have been the fireman and the other two adult males, at the very least.

They could have made the choice that they were better able to with stand his punches and kicks more than a 2 year old baby could, especially THREE of them. DAMN IT!!!!

Let this all be a lesson to you. Go find you a class on how to react to a man stomping the shit out of a baby…you know, the class policeman take. That way, you wont find yourself counting the blows to his face instead of stopping them. Thank God for the policemen…if it weren’t for them protecting us, I just don’t know what I would do. Roll Fucking Eyes.

As Hippie would say, Right on, man!!

Damn, I knew I should have broken the “No DD at home” rule last night, while the discussion was still going. I thought of all these things to point out and now I can’t get a reply, as I assume, they have got tired of this discussion, oh well.

Why does the law only apply to certain people and not all? Why do you think abused, terrified mothers should be held more accountable than the 3 able bodied, non-abused men, one of which was trained for high stress situations? Please explain how you find this acceptable?

I think it comes down to there is something UNNATURAL about allowing a child to be harmed or killed without interceding. As humans I think we are mostly hard-wired to save an infant or young child from abuse or serious injury

We are also hesitant to intervene in normal cases of “discipline” between a parent and a child. But everyone has a line that they can see crossed (stomping, smashing, shaking, etc. a baby) I dont know why 5-12 adult bystanders either didnt react or failed to stop him……….Everyone has a tire iron in his/her trunk, many people have fire extiguishers, etc

I kind of believed after 9/11 occurred we all had a semi-plan formulated in the event we were in a situation where we would be FORCED to fight, I guess I was wrong

Ok…I’ve been reading the front page of this story and have been following it a bit..

Friend of mine told me the day this happened, but since it was my 2 yr olds bday I didn’t want to get sad and upset over this – and instead took my daughter out for some fun.

Here’s my thoughts thus far: (I’m not gonna bother quoting, because I’m too lazy for that.)

Whether it be the automatic “fight, flight, or freeze” response…I do NOT think this is a problem with the world today, I think this depends on the individuals morals/background. I am a lot younger than most of you on this site, and have been raised in a completely different setting than most of you. I was born in the 80′s, just for a reference to my age, so you understand that I am considered one of the new-wave parents now.

I am originally from NJ (I believe someone mentioned NJ has basically outlawed self-defense). The LAW in NJ is for self-defense to be envoked, you need to be HIT two times before you are allowed to defend yourself. I find this law bogus for several reasons that I won’t get into.

As for the “most people are raised to ignore people in help unless FIRE is screamed”, this is absolutely true. I have witnessed this on several occassions. My neighbors would all surround a local house to see a fire, but if someone was getting beat up right in front of them – they would do nothing more than watch on. I personally believe this is not because of fear, but because they just don’t WANT to get involved.

Now, as soon as I read the “he was calm, and kept repeating he needed to get the demons out”…that struck a VERY strong cord with me. My own father abused me until I was about 12 years old saying that same exact phrase. Having personally seen someone go (in my own words) nutso, yet stay very calm – as he was every single time, since he was focused on a “goal” – I know that this guy’s calmness only adds to a more chilling effect from me. This seems completely natural for someone with severe anger problems (as my father was later diagnosed with) and a side dish of narcissistic personallity disorder. My own mother tried to drag my father off of me any way she could…but he basically didn’t feel a thing. This is completely normal for the attacker, since they are so consumed with what they are doing at the time.

I don’t remember who said it (I think it was Harley), but a few people mentioned that before we start throwing stones…we will never know what we would do in that situation ourselves. In fact, I find that completely false. Example: At the age of 15, I was personally stepping in to defend children, dogs, etc. I got into my first car accident (old woman driving, not wearing glasses…stops in the middle of the road suddenly to try to turn left into some BUSHES…I slam on my breaks, guy behind me does not) where a child was THROWN from the car behind me (no seat belt, and the guy didn’t have insurance btw) through the windshield.

Instead of calling 911, I saw the kid go flying and got OUT of my car. Instead of watching this kid bleed to death, I grabbed extra towels I keep in my car and wrapped the child in it. I kept talking to the kid until the ambulance showed up. What did the father do? Nothing, hell he told me to stop fussing over HIS kid. I didn’t even get my towels back. Did I care about stupid towels? Not a damn whit. Did I think before I did this? Hell yeah I did. One look and I could SEE this kid was going to die unless someone stopped the bleeding.

Fast forwards about 6 years later. In a grocery store, a woman is BEATING her child with her purse (the thing was heavy, and you could HEAR the hits -and crying – on the child from a distance). Everyone watches, about 8 people. I get fed up after TWO hits, and step between the child and her. The stupid part about this? I was 6 months pregnant, and I was the one to stop this woman from going insane. If my husband wasn’t there, I’m sure she wouldda hit me too. Did I care? NO!

What it comes down to…regardless of AGE, RACE, RELGION (etc), there are just some people out there that would put their own life at risk to help someone else that is defenseless. I am not a big person by far (4’10, 81 lbs prior to my current pregnancy), however…I would GLADY put myself between an attacker and a defenseless person/animal.

The reason why I am posting this…is not to get kudos or whatever, but in fact to enlighten people (I believe it was Morbid..?) to the fact that just because SOME people in the world are complete dickheads…doesn’t mean we all are. It upsets me that at the age of 15 I was mentally raised better than all of these adults that WATCHED this happen. For Christ’s sake, 100+ kicks and all these bystanders did NOTHING for over (?) 10 minutes. When it comes down to it – at the age of 15, I was way more conditioned to HELPING defenseless children MORE than these fuckers that stood there and watched.

As much as I am disgusted with what this person did, I am also disgusted with the bystanders that basically didn’t do jack. It doesn’t take a genius to SEE blood and realize that this is a SERIOUS situation. Even IF he had a weapon, that should have made ZERO difference until it was AIMED at them. Since he wasn’t focused on the bystanders, I can only assume that they were NOT frozen in fear (cause I sure as hell wouldn’t be even if he had a damn gun in my face), they were just too chicken-shit to get involved. They figured, not my fight…why bother, and this mentallity is WRONG.

I am upset a lot over the bystanders AND the sperm donor that did this. My personal opinion is that the father is to blame yes, he will probably fry for this…however, to stand and watch something as horrific as this without getting involved….to me that is ALMOST equally troubling. I think every single one of those bystanders that did nothing should serve some sort of punishment, mostly as an example to future people that stand by and watch this type of thing again. If they are punished (especially the firefighter and the people in this car), then we would see a lot less of this happening in the world. If parents need to lead by example, then people in power should as well. I give massive kudos to the cop that shot the bastard, I give zero sympathy/kudos to the people that WATCHED this happen.

Sorry for the wall of text btw…just some things irritating me that I wanted to discuss. Plus I listed personal examples, so people wouldn’t go “oh you don’t know, stop throwing stones!”

Sorry for the wall of text btw…just some things irritating me that I wanted to discuss. Plus I listed personal examples, so people wouldn’t go “oh you don’t know, stop throwing stones!”

Sorry for the wall of text btw…just some things irritating me that I wanted to discuss. Plus I listed personal examples, so people wouldn’t go “oh you don’t know, stop throwing stones!”

I completely know where you’re coming from. Welcome to the site.

And just for the record, Morbid, feels as you and I do – that someone should have gotten off their collective asses and stepped in to help. He’s one of the good guys.

I had a couple of “walls of text” over this story myself. The outrage I feel at the bystanders is just barely behind the father. Obviously, I hold the father responsible and am thankful that he is dead. But, those bystanders, the damn fireman, they are killing me. How could they have so little compassion as to just watch?

Sorry for the wall of text btw…just some things irritating me that I wanted to discuss. Plus I listed personal examples, so people wouldn’t go “oh you don’t know, stop throwing stones!”

I completely know where you’re coming from. Welcome to the site.

And just for the record, Morbid, feels as you and I do – that someone should have gotten off their collective asses and stepped in to help. He’s one of the good guys.

I had a couple of “walls of text” over this story myself. The outrage I feel at the bystanders is just barely behind the father. Obviously, I hold the father responsible and am thankful that he is dead. But, those bystanders, the damn fireman, they are killing me. How could they have so little compassion as to just watch?

How could they have so little compassion as to just watch?

Didn’t you read what Athena posted? They we ALL genetically unable to do so. It’s not their fault. They weren’t skeered, they were ALL just unlucky enough to be born with the genetic make-up to do everything BUT put themselves in harms way when faced with a choice to come to the aid of a helpless baby being turned into a bloody pot-hole.

/end sarcasm

How could they have so little compassion as to just watch?

Didn’t you read what Athena posted? They we ALL genetically unable to do so. It’s not their fault. They weren’t skeered, they were ALL just unlucky enough to be born with the genetic make-up to do everything BUT put themselves in harms way when faced with a choice to come to the aid of a helpless baby being turned into a bloody pot-hole.

/end sarcasm

Didn’t you read what Athena posted? They we ALL genetically unable to do so. It’s not their fault. They weren’t skeered, they were ALL just unlucky enough to be born with the genetic make-up to do everything BUT put themselves in harms way when faced with a choice to come to the aid of a helpless baby being turned into a bloody pot-hole.

Yeah, I read that. I find it more than coincidental, that ALL were plagued with this genetic makeup. I don’t dispute Athena’s facts, as I’m sure she has done much research on the subject.

I find that the “researchers”, themselves, have taken to heart a chickenshits words, “that I couldn’t move” or “I was unable to act”. The researchers should have called bullshit on this and said, “you had a responsibility to help!” Instead, they accepted this bullshit of words as a real reason the people wouldn’t help. Then, that PROVIDED an excuse for the rest of the chickenshits not to act.

When the very first man got a pass from his peers for not intervening others filed it away, for their excuse as to not get involved – whether they were “truly paralyzed with fear” or not. Now, that it has become acceptable “not to do the right thing”, others are less inclined to get involved because its no longer expected by society. 25 years ago, these witnesses would have been treated, by society, nearly as bad as the father, for not acting. Its a sorry mentallity change, if you ask me.

I dispute the fact that its “uncontrollable”. I find it nothing more than an excuse, that was provided to “researchers” instead of saying, “I was chickenshit”. And that they (researchers) chose to believe it instead of questioning their (bystanders) HONEST and TRUE motives for not helping. You know, it would be hard to admit that you just stood and watched a child get murdered. I would make up a big, fat lie to divert attention away from my cowardly actions, too.

Didn’t you read what Athena posted? They we ALL genetically unable to do so. It’s not their fault. They weren’t skeered, they were ALL just unlucky enough to be born with the genetic make-up to do everything BUT put themselves in harms way when faced with a choice to come to the aid of a helpless baby being turned into a bloody pot-hole.

Yeah, I read that. I find it more than coincidental, that ALL were plagued with this genetic makeup. I don’t dispute Athena’s facts, as I’m sure she has done much research on the subject.

I find that the “researchers”, themselves, have taken to heart a chickenshits words, “that I couldn’t move” or “I was unable to act”. The researchers should have called bullshit on this and said, “you had a responsibility to help!” Instead, they accepted this bullshit of words as a real reason the people wouldn’t help. Then, that PROVIDED an excuse for the rest of the chickenshits not to act.

When the very first man got a pass from his peers for not intervening others filed it away, for their excuse as to not get involved – whether they were “truly paralyzed with fear” or not. Now, that it has become acceptable “not to do the right thing”, others are less inclined to get involved because its no longer expected by society. 25 years ago, these witnesses would have been treated, by society, nearly as bad as the father, for not acting. Its a sorry mentallity change, if you ask me.

I dispute the fact that its “uncontrollable”. I find it nothing more than an excuse, that was provided to “researchers” instead of saying, “I was chickenshit”. And that they (researchers) chose to believe it instead of questioning their (bystanders) HONEST and TRUE motives for not helping. You know, it would be hard to admit that you just stood and watched a child get murdered. I would make up a big, fat lie to divert attention away from my cowardly actions, too.

I think I can understand where the “freezing” comes in. But usually (and this is from what I’ve noticed) the “freezing” wears off after a minute or two. Then you are forced with the decision of acting, or stand there and keep watching. There is a certain point (during that 10 minutes that they stood there), where they COULD HAVE acted…and they just didn’t. That freezing wears off quickly, after the initial shock, and I have a feeling like these people are just covering their asses.

There may be a lot of research done on this, however I do NOT think that genetics has anything to do with this at all. My own family wouldn’t step in, I would though. How is that for genetics for ya? I think that it does not rely on genetics at all to control my personallity.

I think I can understand where the “freezing” comes in. But usually (and this is from what I’ve noticed) the “freezing” wears off after a minute or two. Then you are forced with the decision of acting, or stand there and keep watching. There is a certain point (during that 10 minutes that they stood there), where they COULD HAVE acted…and they just didn’t. That freezing wears off quickly, after the initial shock, and I have a feeling like these people are just covering their asses.

There may be a lot of research done on this, however I do NOT think that genetics has anything to do with this at all. My own family wouldn’t step in, I would though. How is that for genetics for ya? I think that it does not rely on genetics at all to control my personallity.

There may be a lot of research done on this, however I do NOT think that genetics has anything to do with this at all. My own family wouldn’t step in, I would though. How is that for genetics for ya? I think that it does not rely on genetics at all to control my personallity.

Well, not by itself, anyway. I do believe that’s “a part” of it, but only a small part. I believe that our environment has a lot to do with what helps us make our decisions in tough situations like this. I think our “sense of right and wrong” has to take over after the “initial shock” wears off. I agree 110% with your statement, that at some point they had to make a decision. Well, we all know what decision they made – to save themselves and the poor baby is on its own.

There may be a lot of research done on this, however I do NOT think that genetics has anything to do with this at all. My own family wouldn’t step in, I would though. How is that for genetics for ya? I think that it does not rely on genetics at all to control my personallity.

Well, not by itself, anyway. I do believe that’s “a part” of it, but only a small part. I believe that our environment has a lot to do with what helps us make our decisions in tough situations like this. I think our “sense of right and wrong” has to take over after the “initial shock” wears off. I agree 110% with your statement, that at some point they had to make a decision. Well, we all know what decision they made – to save themselves and the poor baby is on its own.

Man, I agree with you. However, I don’t think they were really thinking of saving themselves. The guy was using his feet/fists. He had no viewable weapon. With no weapon in site, (even if he had a concealed one) and the firefighter (think it was him) even stating that the guy tried to grab his PEN as a weapon…I highly doubt there was anymore cause for concern of a “concealed weapon”. If I had heard that, assuming I didn’t jump in already, I wouldda been all over the sperm donor like white on rice.

Man, I agree with you. However, I don’t think they were really thinking of saving themselves. The guy was using his feet/fists. He had no viewable weapon. With no weapon in site, (even if he had a concealed one) and the firefighter (think it was him) even stating that the guy tried to grab his PEN as a weapon…I highly doubt there was anymore cause for concern of a “concealed weapon”. If I had heard that, assuming I didn’t jump in already, I wouldda been all over the sperm donor like white on rice.

I think it was not worth their time or effort to intervene. I think they just decided that it wasn’t their problem and watched the show. I get what you’re saying about “saving themselves” – saving themselves from what? That’s the point right there, he was calm, he did not have weapons, he was not aggressive in anyway toward the bystanders. So, where did their paralyzing fear come from?

They CHOSE not to act. They CHOSE to watch the man stomp the baby 100 plus times. They are now ashamed of the choices they made, nothing more. They are chickenshits and forever will be, just like poor Sergio will forever be dead while they stood and watched.

I think it was not worth their time or effort to intervene. I think they just decided that it wasn’t their problem and watched the show. I get what you’re saying about “saving themselves” – saving themselves from what? That’s the point right there, he was calm, he did not have weapons, he was not aggressive in anyway toward the bystanders. So, where did their paralyzing fear come from?

They CHOSE not to act. They CHOSE to watch the man stomp the baby 100 plus times. They are now ashamed of the choices they made, nothing more. They are chickenshits and forever will be, just like poor Sergio will forever be dead while they stood and watched.

I think it was not worth their time or effort to intervene. I think they just decided that it wasn’t their problem and watched the show. I get what you’re saying about “saving themselves” – saving themselves from what? That’s the point right there, he was calm, he did not have weapons, he was not aggressive in anyway toward the bystanders. So, where did their paralyzing fear come from?

They CHOSE not to act. They CHOSE to watch the man stomp the baby 100 plus times. They are now ashamed of the choices they made, nothing more. They are chickenshits and forever will be, just like poor Sergio will forever be dead while they stood and watched.

I completely agree with you with ThePooh5! I couldn’t of said it better myself. Though, saving themselves thing…I agree, there was no need to “save themselves” since he didn’t have a [concealed] weapon. Even after they were told he didn’t have one, they didn’t bother.

Talk about stand up people. /sarcasm/ I think they are all just covering their asses so that people like us don’t judge them for being pussies. This poor child could have had better chances if someone intervened immediately.

I wish we could lock these people up in a room for hours with just the picture of this child, so they know EXACTLY why they are all asshats.

I completely agree with you with ThePooh5! I couldn’t of said it better myself. Though, saving themselves thing…I agree, there was no need to “save themselves” since he didn’t have a [concealed] weapon. Even after they were told he didn’t have one, they didn’t bother.

Talk about stand up people. /sarcasm/ I think they are all just covering their asses so that people like us don’t judge them for being pussies. This poor child could have had better chances if someone intervened immediately.

I wish we could lock these people up in a room for hours with just the picture of this child, so they know EXACTLY why they are all asshats.

I wish we could lock these people up in a room for hours with just the picture of this child, so they know EXACTLY why they are all asshats.

Yeah, I agree. They may have not broken a law to prosecute them on, but I would imagine that would get to them. Well, I don’t know if it would or not. After all they did stand and watch without any qualms.

Seriously, I think that is the best idea I’ve heard for dealing with the witnesses.

I wish we could lock these people up in a room for hours with just the picture of this child, so they know EXACTLY why they are all asshats.

Yeah, I agree. They may have not broken a law to prosecute them on, but I would imagine that would get to them. Well, I don’t know if it would or not. After all they did stand and watch without any qualms.

Seriously, I think that is the best idea I’ve heard for dealing with the witnesses.

You should be thanking god for people like me. Unlike him or you, I will try to stop shit like that if I come across it. That’s my gig.

Maybe you would, Morbid. I don’t presume to know what you’ve been through. Maybe you know you’d be able to act under these circumstances because you’ve been through similarly intense circumstances. I happen to know that I am able to perform under extreme stress, because I’ve had to in the past. My point, which was apparently lost on you at some point along the way, is that not everyone is able to perform under such circumstances, and you can’t possibly know which catagory you fall into until you’re thrust into such a situation. Are you telling me that’s unreasonable?

Didn’t you read what Athena posted? They we ALL genetically unable to do so. It’s not their fault. They weren’t skeered, they were ALL just unlucky enough to be born with the genetic make-up to do everything BUT put themselves in harms way when faced with a choice to come to the aid of a helpless baby being turned into a bloody pot-hole.

Didn’t YOU read what Athena posted? Because, I said no such thing. You shouldn’t have to misrepresent my position to make a point.

First off, some of these people DID act. “At least two” is what the articles say. As for the rest?

We don’t know why some of these people didn’t act. Folks around here are quick to blame a lack of courage, but that may not have played into it at all. You’ll have to excuse me for not hopping onto the torch and pitchfork bearing bandwagon when the qualified professionals are telling us not to be so quick to judge, and my own research verifies the position of those professionals. When EVERYONE who is educated about this particular subject agrees that we should not be so quick to blame these people, I’m not going to choose to ignore that because some random ass people with no psychological education have decided to think otherwise, science be damned.

Don’t worry, Morbid…I’ll still come to you about my computer questions.

Pooh – Do you really think these people watched without qualms??? These people are likely going to spend the rest of their lives haunted by these images…Images they didn’t ask for. Images they unfortunately happened upon. But, hey, let’s go ahead and torture them a little more, huh?

I might be jaded, but I’m not ready to assume the worst about everyone.

You should be thanking god for people like me. Unlike him or you, I will try to stop shit like that if I come across it. That’s my gig.

Maybe you would, Morbid. I don’t presume to know what you’ve been through. Maybe you know you’d be able to act under these circumstances because you’ve been through similarly intense circumstances. I happen to know that I am able to perform under extreme stress, because I’ve had to in the past. My point, which was apparently lost on you at some point along the way, is that not everyone is able to perform under such circumstances, and you can’t possibly know which catagory you fall into until you’re thrust into such a situation. Are you telling me that’s unreasonable?

Didn’t you read what Athena posted? They we ALL genetically unable to do so. It’s not their fault. They weren’t skeered, they were ALL just unlucky enough to be born with the genetic make-up to do everything BUT put themselves in harms way when faced with a choice to come to the aid of a helpless baby being turned into a bloody pot-hole.

Didn’t YOU read what Athena posted? Because, I said no such thing. You shouldn’t have to misrepresent my position to make a point.

First off, some of these people DID act. “At least two” is what the articles say. As for the rest?

We don’t know why some of these people didn’t act. Folks around here are quick to blame a lack of courage, but that may not have played into it at all. You’ll have to excuse me for not hopping onto the torch and pitchfork bearing bandwagon when the qualified professionals are telling us not to be so quick to judge, and my own research verifies the position of those professionals. When EVERYONE who is educated about this particular subject agrees that we should not be so quick to blame these people, I’m not going to choose to ignore that because some random ass people with no psychological education have decided to think otherwise, science be damned.

Don’t worry, Morbid…I’ll still come to you about my computer questions.

Pooh – Do you really think these people watched without qualms??? These people are likely going to spend the rest of their lives haunted by these images…Images they didn’t ask for. Images they unfortunately happened upon. But, hey, let’s go ahead and torture them a little more, huh?

I might be jaded, but I’m not ready to assume the worst about everyone.

Pooh – Do you really think these people watched without qualms??? These people are likely going to spend the rest of their lives haunted by these images…Images they didn’t ask for. Images they unfortunately happened upon. But, hey, let’s go ahead and torture them a little more, huh?

Maybe qualms wasn’t the correct word, but I do think they just watched. I think they should have acted, as a group, if they couldn’t muster the courage to stand alone. And, while I’m sure they’re disturbed by what they saw – do I think disturbed is enough? No.

I’d be disturbed that I was the type of person who could watch something like this without acting. I would be in the psych ward, if I had watched and not acted, intentional or not, my inactions would have set in on me and I could not bare to know I did not help that poor baby.

Goin’ home. See ya tomorrow to better clarify my point. Peace to all.

Pooh – Do you really think these people watched without qualms??? These people are likely going to spend the rest of their lives haunted by these images…Images they didn’t ask for. Images they unfortunately happened upon. But, hey, let’s go ahead and torture them a little more, huh?

Maybe qualms wasn’t the correct word, but I do think they just watched. I think they should have acted, as a group, if they couldn’t muster the courage to stand alone. And, while I’m sure they’re disturbed by what they saw – do I think disturbed is enough? No.

I’d be disturbed that I was the type of person who could watch something like this without acting. I would be in the psych ward, if I had watched and not acted, intentional or not, my inactions would have set in on me and I could not bare to know I did not help that poor baby.

Goin’ home. See ya tomorrow to better clarify my point. Peace to all.

Pooh – Do you really think these people watched without qualms??? These people are likely going to spend the rest of their lives haunted by these images…Images they didn’t ask for. Images they unfortunately happened upon. But, hey, let’s go ahead and torture them a little more, huh?

Maybe qualms wasn’t the correct word, but I do think they just watched. I think they should have acted, as a group, if they couldn’t muster the courage to stand alone. And, while I’m sure they’re disturbed by what they saw – do I think disturbed is enough? No.

I’d be disturbed that I was the type of person who could watch something like this without acting. I would be in the psych ward, if I had watched and not acted, intentional or not, my inactions would have set in on me and I could not bare to know I did not help that poor baby.

Goin’ home. See ya tomorrow to better clarify my point. Peace to all.

I’m having a hard time sitting back and listening to this drivel about psychologists and “professionals”. Just because they have a degree in said field, or special in this type of thing does by no means make them professionals. Hell, I can get an online degree in criminal science…but would that make ME a professional? Just because I have had said degree for so long and did a few “research” studies on it, doesn’t make me knowledge-able about how EVERYONE would react.

To me this is based on personallity, prior experience with these type of situations (in some cases), how someone was raised (right from wrong – morals anyone?), and how their local society is. For example, I posted my own personal experiences with this type of stuff…I know I’d react again. I also know that in NJ it’s harder to get people to help you even if you’re lying dead, however in ND almost everyone would jump in and help…this is the society aspect. I was raised to believe that you SHOULD help people in need, or in danger…not to run away from it. Hell, even people walking on the side of the road is considered “dangerous” nowadays. Yet, you still see people picking them up and offering these “dangerous – could be carrying a weapon” people a ride someplace.

How did they get their research? First hand watching how people reacted to these situations, or listening to them AFTER it happened and taking notes on what the bystanders said? I’ve seen countless reports on various controversial things by “professionals” that are usually backed with zero evidence and can barely prove their point – let alone state for a FACT that this a normal occurance. Maybe it’s just me, but usually when people rely on “professional” opinion…I usually get upset and assume these professionals have no idea. (Example: SIDS, Breast is best…the list goes on)

There are so many controversial issues that “professionals” try to get involved in, that 9 times outta 10…these professionals can’t even scrape up enough evidence to come close to what they were trying to prove. And now you are telling me…that watching a baby for OVER 10 minutes being kicked and stomped SAFELY inside your car…that these professionals are 100% right in their assumption that this all relies on genetics?

The damn guy even stopped kicking the child to turn on his flashers. The fire chief calmly ASKED the guy to stop. Screw asking, DEMAND…get in his face, don’t go and hide in your car! Obviously this fire chief had the insane notion to at least attempt to stop the guy, but why did he even bother ASKING if he – himself wasn’t going to do more than just hide?

I’m going to say this, and most likely get flamed..you said yourself Athena…”overwhelming data to suggest that people’s behavior in these types of instances is primarily automatic”. There is no concrete 100% proof that this true. Just because some nutjob goes on the news reporting it’s completely normal (which btw, I don’t buy) doesn’t mean that EVERYONE in the WORLD has that SAME EXACT reaction. When you can show me 100% proof from these so-called professionals…I’ll believe this “automatic” resolve to “freeze”. Otherwise, to me, I call bs.

As for the two people that attempted to intervene…I’m pretty sure that was the “firefighter” and probably the older gentleman that originally happened upon the scene. I can’t prove it, but this is just my guess.

I’m having a hard time sitting back and listening to this drivel about psychologists and “professionals”. Just because they have a degree in said field, or special in this type of thing does by no means make them professionals. Hell, I can get an online degree in criminal science…but would that make ME a professional? Just because I have had said degree for so long and did a few “research” studies on it, doesn’t make me knowledge-able about how EVERYONE would react.

To me this is based on personallity, prior experience with these type of situations (in some cases), how someone was raised (right from wrong – morals anyone?), and how their local society is. For example, I posted my own personal experiences with this type of stuff…I know I’d react again. I also know that in NJ it’s harder to get people to help you even if you’re lying dead, however in ND almost everyone would jump in and help…this is the society aspect. I was raised to believe that you SHOULD help people in need, or in danger…not to run away from it. Hell, even people walking on the side of the road is considered “dangerous” nowadays. Yet, you still see people picking them up and offering these “dangerous – could be carrying a weapon” people a ride someplace.

How did they get their research? First hand watching how people reacted to these situations, or listening to them AFTER it happened and taking notes on what the bystanders said? I’ve seen countless reports on various controversial things by “professionals” that are usually backed with zero evidence and can barely prove their point – let alone state for a FACT that this a normal occurance. Maybe it’s just me, but usually when people rely on “professional” opinion…I usually get upset and assume these professionals have no idea. (Example: SIDS, Breast is best…the list goes on)

There are so many controversial issues that “professionals” try to get involved in, that 9 times outta 10…these professionals can’t even scrape up enough evidence to come close to what they were trying to prove. And now you are telling me…that watching a baby for OVER 10 minutes being kicked and stomped SAFELY inside your car…that these professionals are 100% right in their assumption that this all relies on genetics?

The damn guy even stopped kicking the child to turn on his flashers. The fire chief calmly ASKED the guy to stop. Screw asking, DEMAND…get in his face, don’t go and hide in your car! Obviously this fire chief had the insane notion to at least attempt to stop the guy, but why did he even bother ASKING if he – himself wasn’t going to do more than just hide?

I’m going to say this, and most likely get flamed..you said yourself Athena…”overwhelming data to suggest that people’s behavior in these types of instances is primarily automatic”. There is no concrete 100% proof that this true. Just because some nutjob goes on the news reporting it’s completely normal (which btw, I don’t buy) doesn’t mean that EVERYONE in the WORLD has that SAME EXACT reaction. When you can show me 100% proof from these so-called professionals…I’ll believe this “automatic” resolve to “freeze”. Otherwise, to me, I call bs.

As for the two people that attempted to intervene…I’m pretty sure that was the “firefighter” and probably the older gentleman that originally happened upon the scene. I can’t prove it, but this is just my guess.

I just thought I’d also like to add onto what ThePooh5 said…they could have all acted together. Whatever happened to those “professionals” and their opinions on the “gang mentallity”? Didn’t they say back in the day that when more than one person has a common goal in mind, that the “gang mentallity” strikes? Hell, didn’t they even acquit some people based off of this theory?

If all of them were in “fear” of their lives, or in shock for that matter, wouldn’t the gang mentallity of struck a cord? Why for god’s sake, did NO ONE pick up a stick or something lying around to get this guy to stop. He was so focused on the baby, that anyone could have done this easily.

I just thought I’d also like to add onto what ThePooh5 said…they could have all acted together. Whatever happened to those “professionals” and their opinions on the “gang mentallity”? Didn’t they say back in the day that when more than one person has a common goal in mind, that the “gang mentallity” strikes? Hell, didn’t they even acquit some people based off of this theory?

If all of them were in “fear” of their lives, or in shock for that matter, wouldn’t the gang mentallity of struck a cord? Why for god’s sake, did NO ONE pick up a stick or something lying around to get this guy to stop. He was so focused on the baby, that anyone could have done this easily.

Sorry, I wasn’t on yesterday as promised, to continue this discussion – my car tore up, so then I thought I’ll just drive my gas sucking truck to work – my truck broke down, too. So, no work yesterday, only paying through the nose at a garage. Anyway…………………

How did they get their research? First hand watching how people reacted to these situations, or listening to them AFTER it happened and taking notes on what the bystanders said? I’ve seen countless reports on various controversial things by “professionals” that are usually backed with zero evidence and can barely prove their point – let alone state for a FACT that this a normal occurance. Maybe it’s just me, but usually when people rely on “professional” opinion…I usually get upset and assume these professionals have no idea. (Example: SIDS, Breast is best…the list goes on)

The “after the fact” part is EXACTLY what I was saying, as far as, “the story” the “professionals” were TOLD, as to why they did not act — these actions or INACTIONS, I should say, are NOT witnessed, are not double blind studies, are not experiments in a controlled environment. These “stories” or accounts are told by witnesses, who may have been questioning their own morals and actions and who were more than likely ashamed of their inactions, already.

To say it “out loud” to another person is like a huge smack of reality in their faces. They are admitting they are chickenshit to themselves and another person. They would be admitting to allowing a child to die, without raising a hand to stop it. Now, who wants to admit that shit to themselves, much less their peers? NO ONE!, thus your bullshit stories are given birth.

On here, we always demand evidence. Where is the “professionals” evidence that this cannot be controlled? When did they actually watch and observe – not get told a story after the fact, when the shame has already set in? Which gene is it that makes you freeze so that you cannot act to save a child? Where is the documentation, other than just one human telling another “their version” of an event?

When we have defenders of perps on here, one of the first things asked by any regular is, “where is your proof?” – we don’t just accept WORDS. So, why did the so called “professionals” buy the first line of shit that popped out of the chickenshits mouth?

And like I stated before, even if Athena’s information is 100% correct, I find it more than coincidental that ALL of the witnesses were born with this chickenshit trait. I mean, really, what are the odds, that all 12 witnesses had blonde hair and blue eyes? Or that all 12 were left handed, with red hair? With that, what are the odds that all 12 had this genetic make-up that rendered them ALL incapable of acting?

And one final thing to the “I can’t help it” shit – what about women who have always been abused, who do not act to save their children? – we prosecute the hell out of them legally and publically. Now I ask you, WHY? Because its their duty!!! Same as it was everyone’s DUTY who watched this tragedy unfold.

If we follow Athena’s researchers logic and reasoning, an abused mother has more of an excuse for not acting than anyone else. They have been “trained” to not fight back. They are trained to know they are powerless against the would be abuser. They have been shown repeatedly how usless their words and actions are and have been beaten down for trying to get away.

So, how in the hell can we hold these moms to a higher standard than say, oh a fireman, with crisis training? Giving birth DOES NOT give you the ability, knowledge, or strength to deal with a psychopath, yet we EXPECT the mother to act to defend. Why? Now, tell me how these so called “powerless” witnesses, (who I might add, have never had the “training” of abuse and knowing your place) should get any more of a pass than an abused mother? How?

Show me the difference! How do the so called professionals differentiate between the two acts? The mother is criminal and the bystanders were genetically unable to help. I want to know their “grading scale” or what have you, for their interpretation of the inactions of mothers and plain ole witnesses.

I damn well expect mothers to act to save their children! I damn well expect grown adults to act to save a child, too – training or not! And any mother who does not should be charged accordingly – so should any grown adult who was there and watched.

Sorry, I wasn’t on yesterday as promised, to continue this discussion – my car tore up, so then I thought I’ll just drive my gas sucking truck to work – my truck broke down, too. So, no work yesterday, only paying through the nose at a garage. Anyway…………………

How did they get their research? First hand watching how people reacted to these situations, or listening to them AFTER it happened and taking notes on what the bystanders said? I’ve seen countless reports on various controversial things by “professionals” that are usually backed with zero evidence and can barely prove their point – let alone state for a FACT that this a normal occurance. Maybe it’s just me, but usually when people rely on “professional” opinion…I usually get upset and assume these professionals have no idea. (Example: SIDS, Breast is best…the list goes on)

The “after the fact” part is EXACTLY what I was saying, as far as, “the story” the “professionals” were TOLD, as to why they did not act — these actions or INACTIONS, I should say, are NOT witnessed, are not double blind studies, are not experiments in a controlled environment. These “stories” or accounts are told by witnesses, who may have been questioning their own morals and actions and who were more than likely ashamed of their inactions, already.

To say it “out loud” to another person is like a huge smack of reality in their faces. They are admitting they are chickenshit to themselves and another person. They would be admitting to allowing a child to die, without raising a hand to stop it. Now, who wants to admit that shit to themselves, much less their peers? NO ONE!, thus your bullshit stories are given birth.

On here, we always demand evidence. Where is the “professionals” evidence that this cannot be controlled? When did they actually watch and observe – not get told a story after the fact, when the shame has already set in? Which gene is it that makes you freeze so that you cannot act to save a child? Where is the documentation, other than just one human telling another “their version” of an event?

When we have defenders of perps on here, one of the first things asked by any regular is, “where is your proof?” – we don’t just accept WORDS. So, why did the so called “professionals” buy the first line of shit that popped out of the chickenshits mouth?

And like I stated before, even if Athena’s information is 100% correct, I find it more than coincidental that ALL of the witnesses were born with this chickenshit trait. I mean, really, what are the odds, that all 12 witnesses had blonde hair and blue eyes? Or that all 12 were left handed, with red hair? With that, what are the odds that all 12 had this genetic make-up that rendered them ALL incapable of acting?

And one final thing to the “I can’t help it” shit – what about women who have always been abused, who do not act to save their children? – we prosecute the hell out of them legally and publically. Now I ask you, WHY? Because its their duty!!! Same as it was everyone’s DUTY who watched this tragedy unfold.

If we follow Athena’s researchers logic and reasoning, an abused mother has more of an excuse for not acting than anyone else. They have been “trained” to not fight back. They are trained to know they are powerless against the would be abuser. They have been shown repeatedly how usless their words and actions are and have been beaten down for trying to get away.

So, how in the hell can we hold these moms to a higher standard than say, oh a fireman, with crisis training? Giving birth DOES NOT give you the ability, knowledge, or strength to deal with a psychopath, yet we EXPECT the mother to act to defend. Why? Now, tell me how these so called “powerless” witnesses, (who I might add, have never had the “training” of abuse and knowing your place) should get any more of a pass than an abused mother? How?

Show me the difference! How do the so called professionals differentiate between the two acts? The mother is criminal and the bystanders were genetically unable to help. I want to know their “grading scale” or what have you, for their interpretation of the inactions of mothers and plain ole witnesses.

I damn well expect mothers to act to save their children! I damn well expect grown adults to act to save a child, too – training or not! And any mother who does not should be charged accordingly – so should any grown adult who was there and watched.

If all of them were in “fear” of their lives, or in shock for that matter, wouldn’t the gang mentallity of struck a cord? Why for god’s sake, did NO ONE pick up a stick or something lying around to get this guy to stop. He was so focused on the baby, that anyone could have done this easily.

That’s right, ANYONE could have done it easily. Had they not been more concerned with their own safety than that of a 2 year old child’s against an adult man, the child may have been here today. We will never know, because NO ONE acted to save a child.

He wasn’t even that focused on the child – he stopped to help with the damn flashers, in a calm manner, I might add, but yet “he APPEARED dangerous”. Well lots of things APPEAR to be a certain way, until you get up close and examine it. Until you get off your ass to DEFEND A CHILD, you more than appear to be a chickenshit. YOU ARE A CHICKENSHIT!!

If all of them were in “fear” of their lives, or in shock for that matter, wouldn’t the gang mentallity of struck a cord? Why for god’s sake, did NO ONE pick up a stick or something lying around to get this guy to stop. He was so focused on the baby, that anyone could have done this easily.

That’s right, ANYONE could have done it easily. Had they not been more concerned with their own safety than that of a 2 year old child’s against an adult man, the child may have been here today. We will never know, because NO ONE acted to save a child.

He wasn’t even that focused on the child – he stopped to help with the damn flashers, in a calm manner, I might add, but yet “he APPEARED dangerous”. Well lots of things APPEAR to be a certain way, until you get up close and examine it. Until you get off your ass to DEFEND A CHILD, you more than appear to be a chickenshit. YOU ARE A CHICKENSHIT!!

If all of them were in “fear” of their lives, or in shock for that matter, wouldn’t the gang mentallity of struck a cord? Why for god’s sake, did NO ONE pick up a stick or something lying around to get this guy to stop. He was so focused on the baby, that anyone could have done this easily.

That’s right, ANYONE could have done it easily. Had they not been more concerned with their own safety than that of a 2 year old child’s against an adult man, the child may have been here today. We will never know, because NO ONE acted to save a child.

He wasn’t even that focused on the child – he stopped to help with the damn flashers, in a calm manner, I might add, but yet “he APPEARED dangerous”. Well lots of things APPEAR to be a certain way, until you get up close and examine it. Until you get off your ass to DEFEND A CHILD, you more than appear to be a chickenshit. YOU ARE A CHICKENSHIT!!

I’m having a hard time sitting back and listening to this drivel about psychologists and “professionals”. Just because they have a degree in said field, or special in this type of thing does by no means make them professionals. Hell, I can get an online degree in criminal science…but would that make ME a professional? Just because I have had said degree for so long and did a few “research” studies on it, doesn’t make me knowledge-able about how EVERYONE would react.

The fact that you are so quick to dismiss the education of others suggests you don’t have much of your own. This isn’t just the opinion of some random quack. This is an opinion derived from a number of sources that have researched human behavior. This is well-established. If you folks want to plug your ears and go “Lalalalalala…”, it’s really of no consequence.

Facts are facts, no matter who disbelieves them. The facts here are that “at least two” people physically acted, although to no avail, and several others called the police (under the mistaken but common assumption that police are for protection). Clearly, not “everyone” reacted the same way (a point that seems easily forgotten), so obviously, my opinion, Mom’s opinion, and the opinion of the psychologist consulted in the article does not presume to address how “everyone” acted.

If we follow Athena’s researchers logic and reasoning, an abused mother has more of an excuse for not acting than anyone else. They have been “trained” to not fight back. They are trained to know they are powerless against the would be abuser. They have been shown repeatedly how usless their words and actions are and have been beaten down for trying to get away.

So, how in the hell can we hold these moms to a higher standard than say, oh a fireman, with crisis training? Giving birth DOES NOT give you the ability, knowledge, or strength to deal with a psychopath, yet we EXPECT the mother to act to defend. Why? Now, tell me how these so called “powerless” witnesses, (who I might add, have never had the “training” of abuse and knowing your place) should get any more of a pass than an abused mother? How?

Pooh…You’re not doing yourself any favors, here. Abused mothers DO commonly get a pass, so long as they are not participating in the abuse themselves, and they call police or flee with their children after the fact. So long as they make an effort, we show them mercy. It happens ALL THE TIME around here, and it happens in court even more often. The witnesses in this case, most of them anyway, made an effort, be it physically attempting to stop the attack or calling the police.

I’m having a hard time sitting back and listening to this drivel about psychologists and “professionals”. Just because they have a degree in said field, or special in this type of thing does by no means make them professionals. Hell, I can get an online degree in criminal science…but would that make ME a professional? Just because I have had said degree for so long and did a few “research” studies on it, doesn’t make me knowledge-able about how EVERYONE would react.

The fact that you are so quick to dismiss the education of others suggests you don’t have much of your own. This isn’t just the opinion of some random quack. This is an opinion derived from a number of sources that have researched human behavior. This is well-established. If you folks want to plug your ears and go “Lalalalalala…”, it’s really of no consequence.

Facts are facts, no matter who disbelieves them. The facts here are that “at least two” people physically acted, although to no avail, and several others called the police (under the mistaken but common assumption that police are for protection). Clearly, not “everyone” reacted the same way (a point that seems easily forgotten), so obviously, my opinion, Mom’s opinion, and the opinion of the psychologist consulted in the article does not presume to address how “everyone” acted.

If we follow Athena’s researchers logic and reasoning, an abused mother has more of an excuse for not acting than anyone else. They have been “trained” to not fight back. They are trained to know they are powerless against the would be abuser. They have been shown repeatedly how usless their words and actions are and have been beaten down for trying to get away.

So, how in the hell can we hold these moms to a higher standard than say, oh a fireman, with crisis training? Giving birth DOES NOT give you the ability, knowledge, or strength to deal with a psychopath, yet we EXPECT the mother to act to defend. Why? Now, tell me how these so called “powerless” witnesses, (who I might add, have never had the “training” of abuse and knowing your place) should get any more of a pass than an abused mother? How?

Pooh…You’re not doing yourself any favors, here. Abused mothers DO commonly get a pass, so long as they are not participating in the abuse themselves, and they call police or flee with their children after the fact. So long as they make an effort, we show them mercy. It happens ALL THE TIME around here, and it happens in court even more often. The witnesses in this case, most of them anyway, made an effort, be it physically attempting to stop the attack or calling the police.

I’m having a hard time sitting back and listening to this drivel about psychologists and “professionals”. Just because they have a degree in said field, or special in this type of thing does by no means make them professionals. Hell, I can get an online degree in criminal science…but would that make ME a professional? Just because I have had said degree for so long and did a few “research” studies on it, doesn’t make me knowledge-able about how EVERYONE would react.

The fact that you are so quick to dismiss the education of others suggests you don’t have much of your own. This isn’t just the opinion of some random quack. This is an opinion derived from a number of sources that have researched human behavior. This is well-established. If you folks want to plug your ears and go “Lalalalalala…”, it’s really of no consequence.

Facts are facts, no matter who disbelieves them. The facts here are that “at least two” people physically acted, although to no avail, and several others called the police (under the mistaken but common assumption that police are for protection). Clearly, not “everyone” reacted the same way (a point that seems easily forgotten), so obviously, my opinion, Mom’s opinion, and the opinion of the psychologist consulted in the article does not presume to address how “everyone” acted.

If we follow Athena’s researchers logic and reasoning, an abused mother has more of an excuse for not acting than anyone else. They have been “trained” to not fight back. They are trained to know they are powerless against the would be abuser. They have been shown repeatedly how usless their words and actions are and have been beaten down for trying to get away.

So, how in the hell can we hold these moms to a higher standard than say, oh a fireman, with crisis training? Giving birth DOES NOT give you the ability, knowledge, or strength to deal with a psychopath, yet we EXPECT the mother to act to defend. Why? Now, tell me how these so called “powerless” witnesses, (who I might add, have never had the “training” of abuse and knowing your place) should get any more of a pass than an abused mother? How?

Pooh…You’re not doing yourself any favors, here. Abused mothers DO commonly get a pass, so long as they are not participating in the abuse themselves, and they call police or flee with their children after the fact. So long as they make an effort, we show them mercy. It happens ALL THE TIME around here, and it happens in court even more often. The witnesses in this case, most of them anyway, made an effort, be it physically attempting to stop the attack or calling the police.

The fact that you are so quick to dismiss the education of others suggests you don’t have much of your own. This isn’t just the opinion of some random quack. This is an opinion derived from a number of sources that have researched human behavior. This is well-established. If you folks want to plug your ears and go “Lalalalalala…”, it’s really of no consequence.

Why do you always have to be so insulting? Everyone else here can have an adult discussion and disagree without hurling insults. How about this Athena: the fact that you always resort to attacks on people’s intelligence when you can’t get people to see things your way shows that you care about about being “right” more than you care about having an adult discussion. NO ONE is right 100 percent of the time, and you are no exception girlfriend.

The fact that you are so quick to dismiss the education of others suggests you don’t have much of your own. This isn’t just the opinion of some random quack. This is an opinion derived from a number of sources that have researched human behavior. This is well-established. If you folks want to plug your ears and go “Lalalalalala…”, it’s really of no consequence.

Why do you always have to be so insulting? Everyone else here can have an adult discussion and disagree without hurling insults. How about this Athena: the fact that you always resort to attacks on people’s intelligence when you can’t get people to see things your way shows that you care about about being “right” more than you care about having an adult discussion. NO ONE is right 100 percent of the time, and you are no exception girlfriend.

Pooh…You’re not doing yourself any favors, here. Abused mothers DO commonly get a pass, so long as they are not participating in the abuse themselves, and they call police or flee with their children after the fact. So long as they make an effort, we show them mercy. It happens ALL THE TIME around here, and it happens in court even more often. The witnesses in this case, most of them anyway, made an effort, be it physically attempting to stop the attack or calling the police.

I’m not looking to do myself a favor here. I’m looking for an understanding of HOW we differentiate the two actions. I’m looking for the criteria to determine who CHOSE not to act and who COULD NOT act.

The whole point is: How do we know if it was genetics, training, or cowardice? If people cannot help themselves because of genetic predispositioning or unless they are trained to do so, then how does the law allow for mother’s to be charged, who are not trained for emergency situations? Most mothers are charged whether they were actively abusing or not – notice I did say charged not convicted.

They get charged if they don’t seek help for their child after the abuse, at the abuser’s orders, which after much “training”, they are sure to obey. Sometimes, a mother may not realize how serious the injuries are and figure that if she keeps her mouth shut that the child and/or her may not “get it” any worse – ya know, don’t poke the bear, type of shit. She may think the less said, the less beating for her and/or the child.

They get charged for failing to act. They get charged because we, as a society, feel they should have protected their child, no matter what cost to their personal well being. Well, by all “the professional” accounts, the mothers may have been genetically predispositioned into this freezing. They may have also been “trained” into this “do not fight back” and “obey what I say without question, OR ELSE!” Either way, which ever it is, genetics or their own personal hell training – its not their fault, according to the research and data provided.

Honestly, how do we differentiate the two actions? When is it that a mother is just a sorry bitch who CHOSE not to defend her child, even if she wasn’t participating in the abuse? When is she a mother who COULD NOT defend her child through genetics or abusive “training”, whether she was participating in the abuse or not? How can we say the witnesses COULD NOT act and know that it was genetic to freeze up or they didn’t have the training needed. How do we know when the witnesses DID NOT act because they chose not to get knocked around a little, for fear of their own asses?

What criteria differentiate the two actions, whether you’re a mother or a fireman? How can we, any of us, professional or not, say with any certainty, why anyone acted or did not act? – especially since all of the reasons to act or not are TOLD to the interviewer/researcher, not witnessed. I can say anything that I choose to make up in my shame.

When are people expected to be accountable? When is it out of their control? What is the criteria for seperating the two actions? I’m really trying to understand your side of things.

Pooh…You’re not doing yourself any favors, here. Abused mothers DO commonly get a pass, so long as they are not participating in the abuse themselves, and they call police or flee with their children after the fact. So long as they make an effort, we show them mercy. It happens ALL THE TIME around here, and it happens in court even more often. The witnesses in this case, most of them anyway, made an effort, be it physically attempting to stop the attack or calling the police.

I’m not looking to do myself a favor here. I’m looking for an understanding of HOW we differentiate the two actions. I’m looking for the criteria to determine who CHOSE not to act and who COULD NOT act.

The whole point is: How do we know if it was genetics, training, or cowardice? If people cannot help themselves because of genetic predispositioning or unless they are trained to do so, then how does the law allow for mother’s to be charged, who are not trained for emergency situations? Most mothers are charged whether they were actively abusing or not – notice I did say charged not convicted.

They get charged if they don’t seek help for their child after the abuse, at the abuser’s orders, which after much “training”, they are sure to obey. Sometimes, a mother may not realize how serious the injuries are and figure that if she keeps her mouth shut that the child and/or her may not “get it” any worse – ya know, don’t poke the bear, type of shit. She may think the less said, the less beating for her and/or the child.

They get charged for failing to act. They get charged because we, as a society, feel they should have protected their child, no matter what cost to their personal well being. Well, by all “the professional” accounts, the mothers may have been genetically predispositioned into this freezing. They may have also been “trained” into this “do not fight back” and “obey what I say without question, OR ELSE!” Either way, which ever it is, genetics or their own personal hell training – its not their fault, according to the research and data provided.

Honestly, how do we differentiate the two actions? When is it that a mother is just a sorry bitch who CHOSE not to defend her child, even if she wasn’t participating in the abuse? When is she a mother who COULD NOT defend her child through genetics or abusive “training”, whether she was participating in the abuse or not? How can we say the witnesses COULD NOT act and know that it was genetic to freeze up or they didn’t have the training needed. How do we know when the witnesses DID NOT act because they chose not to get knocked around a little, for fear of their own asses?

What criteria differentiate the two actions, whether you’re a mother or a fireman? How can we, any of us, professional or not, say with any certainty, why anyone acted or did not act? – especially since all of the reasons to act or not are TOLD to the interviewer/researcher, not witnessed. I can say anything that I choose to make up in my shame.

When are people expected to be accountable? When is it out of their control? What is the criteria for seperating the two actions? I’m really trying to understand your side of things.

Facts are facts, no matter who disbelieves them. The facts here are that “at least two” people physically acted, although to no avail, and several others called the police (under the mistaken but common assumption that police are for protection). Clearly, not “everyone” reacted the same way (a point that seems easily forgotten), so obviously, my opinion, Mom’s opinion, and the opinion of the psychologist consulted in the article does not presume to address how “everyone” acted.

If you don’t succeed, try, TRY AGAIN! Was there even one person still physically trying to stop this man? Not according to reports, another point that is easily forgotten. Why, obviously they weren’t paralyzed by fear? So why did they stop attacking the man? Did he hit a little too hard? I wonder what the baby was thinking when none of the adults would help.

Facts are facts, no matter who disbelieves them. The facts here are that “at least two” people physically acted, although to no avail, and several others called the police (under the mistaken but common assumption that police are for protection). Clearly, not “everyone” reacted the same way (a point that seems easily forgotten), so obviously, my opinion, Mom’s opinion, and the opinion of the psychologist consulted in the article does not presume to address how “everyone” acted.

If you don’t succeed, try, TRY AGAIN! Was there even one person still physically trying to stop this man? Not according to reports, another point that is easily forgotten. Why, obviously they weren’t paralyzed by fear? So why did they stop attacking the man? Did he hit a little too hard? I wonder what the baby was thinking when none of the adults would help.

Was there even one person still physically trying to stop this man? Not according to reports, another point that is easily forgotten. Why, obviously they weren’t paralyzed by fear? So why did they stop attacking the man? Did he hit a little too hard?

Deborah McKain said her boyfriend, Dan Robinson, forcefully argued with Aguiar in an effort to get him to stop, but that he would not….

“We were looking for rocks or boards on the ground, just to knock him out, get him under control. But we couldn’t find anything….We didn’t know if he had a knife or any kind of weapon on him.”

McKain said she wondered whether Aguiar was on hallucinogenic drugs and whether fighting with him might lead him to hurt several of the witnesses.

She also said it appeared the child was “gone.”

People who are second-guessing her and her family can “never know until they’re in that situation,” McKain said. “We would have loved to knock his head off, too, but we had nothing to knock it off with.”

Deputy Royjindar Singh, a spokesman for the Stanislaus County Sheriff’s Department, acknowledged there was some “Monday morning quarterbacking” taking place, but said his agency had no problem with the actions of the witnesses.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/06/18/BA2G11ARO9.DTL

Why do you always have to be so insulting? Everyone else here can have an adult discussion and disagree without hurling insults. How about this Athena: the fact that you always resort to attacks on people’s intelligence when you can’t get people to see things your way shows that you care about about being “right” more than you care about having an adult discussion. NO ONE is right 100 percent of the time, and you are no exception girlfriend.

An insult? I was making an observation. People who have worked hard to educate themselves, be it through degrees or vast amounts of research, don’t tend to discredit the education of others. It has nothing to do with intelligence. She could be the smartest poster here, for all I know. How many people with Masters degrees do you hear talking about how meaningless they are? I spend A LOT of time developing an informed opinion based on fact. It’s why I bother to link things, so that we’re NOT just trading conjecture back and forth. I engage in discussion so that I can learn and so that others can learn. So, yeah, it’s frustrating when a person openly discredits that effort.

It’s tragic that you think this is about personal insults and being right, for me. You want to talk insulting? I wonder how Mom-of-4 might feel about AELWINN casually suggesting that her education is meaningless. Because, hey, anyone can hop online and get a degree, right?

You know what, Solange? If I’m wrong, you are free, just like anyone else here, to prove it. Just calling me wrong doesn’t make it so. If you can introduce me to information that debunks the information I’ve got, I’ll be the first to send up the white flag. Believe it or not, I’m a very appreciative loser. Ask swivel! I’m happy to role over when someone can prove their case.

Why do you always have to be so insulting? Everyone else here can have an adult discussion and disagree without hurling insults. How about this Athena: the fact that you always resort to attacks on people’s intelligence when you can’t get people to see things your way shows that you care about about being “right” more than you care about having an adult discussion. NO ONE is right 100 percent of the time, and you are no exception girlfriend.

An insult? I was making an observation. People who have worked hard to educate themselves, be it through degrees or vast amounts of research, don’t tend to discredit the education of others. It has nothing to do with intelligence. She could be the smartest poster here, for all I know. How many people with Masters degrees do you hear talking about how meaningless they are? I spend A LOT of time developing an informed opinion based on fact. It’s why I bother to link things, so that we’re NOT just trading conjecture back and forth. I engage in discussion so that I can learn and so that others can learn. So, yeah, it’s frustrating when a person openly discredits that effort.

It’s tragic that you think this is about personal insults and being right, for me. You want to talk insulting? I wonder how Mom-of-4 might feel about AELWINN casually suggesting that her education is meaningless. Because, hey, anyone can hop online and get a degree, right?

You know what, Solange? If I’m wrong, you are free, just like anyone else here, to prove it. Just calling me wrong doesn’t make it so. If you can introduce me to information that debunks the information I’ve got, I’ll be the first to send up the white flag. Believe it or not, I’m a very appreciative loser. Ask swivel! I’m happy to role over when someone can prove their case.

The whole point is: How do we know if it was genetics, training, or cowardice?

BINGO! That’s my point, too. We DON’T know which is which and who is who, so why are we assuming the worst about ALL of them and wishing horrible things for these people?

They get charged for failing to act.

And these people didn’t fail to act! Some yelled, some attacked, others called the cops. There’s no evidence that ANYONE busted out the cell phone camera and the popcorn and leisurely took in the sights. These people were frightened, horrified, faced with immediate danger and they did all that they knew how to do. Yet, still, people are wishing them harm. It’s callous.

That’s where your abused mother analogy falls short. For as long as she is faced with immediate danger, she is not charged with anything. If there is no longer danger and she still fails to act, that is when charges are considered. By the time these folks were no longer in immediate danger, it was too late. They shouldn’t be judged for that.

The whole point is: How do we know if it was genetics, training, or cowardice?

BINGO! That’s my point, too. We DON’T know which is which and who is who, so why are we assuming the worst about ALL of them and wishing horrible things for these people?

They get charged for failing to act.

And these people didn’t fail to act! Some yelled, some attacked, others called the cops. There’s no evidence that ANYONE busted out the cell phone camera and the popcorn and leisurely took in the sights. These people were frightened, horrified, faced with immediate danger and they did all that they knew how to do. Yet, still, people are wishing them harm. It’s callous.

That’s where your abused mother analogy falls short. For as long as she is faced with immediate danger, she is not charged with anything. If there is no longer danger and she still fails to act, that is when charges are considered. By the time these folks were no longer in immediate danger, it was too late. They shouldn’t be judged for that.

People who are second-guessing her and her family can “never know until they’re in that situation,” McKain said. “We would have loved to knock his head off, too, but we had nothing to knock it off with.”

Not one of these people have a crowbar in their vehicle to fix a flat with?

People who are second-guessing her and her family can “never know until they’re in that situation,” McKain said. “We would have loved to knock his head off, too, but we had nothing to knock it off with.”

Not one of these people have a crowbar in their vehicle to fix a flat with?

Not one of these people have a crowbar in their vehicle to fix a flat with?

Or use their vehicle to run him down with

Not one of these people have a crowbar in their vehicle to fix a flat with?

Or use their vehicle to run him down with

I drove around without a tire iron for YEARS. I have one now, but then I was a stupid girl with AAA. I can change a tire, but never need to.

Strangely enough, I had a hatchet in my trunk until about a month ago. Now, I’ve got a couple of concrete slabs (maybe an 1″x5″x2′, perfect for whacking). Weird shit winds up in my trunk, but I’d definitely have something…

Maybe they didn’t have time to look? I mean, didn’t someone say that it was only 10 minutes from when the first witnesses called the cops to when the cops shot the guy? If people were showing up after that, it doesn’t provide them much time…

I dunno.

I drove around without a tire iron for YEARS. I have one now, but then I was a stupid girl with AAA. I can change a tire, but never need to.

Strangely enough, I had a hatchet in my trunk until about a month ago. Now, I’ve got a couple of concrete slabs (maybe an 1″x5″x2′, perfect for whacking). Weird shit winds up in my trunk, but I’d definitely have something…

Maybe they didn’t have time to look? I mean, didn’t someone say that it was only 10 minutes from when the first witnesses called the cops to when the cops shot the guy? If people were showing up after that, it doesn’t provide them much time…

I dunno.

Listen, I personally (and I don’t think Pooh does either) don’t think all those psychologists are full of shit. But every situation is different, and there are some factors here that make me believe that not all those people were suffering from shock or unable to physically do anything. Also, people interpret information differently. I personally find it hard to believe that all 10 of those people were genetically predisposed to not be able to step in and help that child. And Pooh made a very good point: she didn’t only say mothers being charged for protecting their kids, she was talking about our opinions of them. Which, for the most part, all of us agree that it’s despicable that a mother can watch her husband beat their child to death. No one on here has ever said “Hey, maybe she was frozen in shock or fear”.

Listen, I personally (and I don’t think Pooh does either) don’t think all those psychologists are full of shit. But every situation is different, and there are some factors here that make me believe that not all those people were suffering from shock or unable to physically do anything. Also, people interpret information differently. I personally find it hard to believe that all 10 of those people were genetically predisposed to not be able to step in and help that child. And Pooh made a very good point: she didn’t only say mothers being charged for protecting their kids, she was talking about our opinions of them. Which, for the most part, all of us agree that it’s despicable that a mother can watch her husband beat their child to death. No one on here has ever said “Hey, maybe she was frozen in shock or fear”.

Listen, I personally (and I don’t think Pooh does either) don’t think all those psychologists are full of shit. But every situation is different, and there are some factors here that make me believe that not all those people were suffering from shock or unable to physically do anything. Also, people interpret information differently. I personally find it hard to believe that all 10 of those people were genetically predisposed to not be able to step in and help that child. And Pooh made a very good point: she didn’t only say mothers being charged for protecting their kids, she was talking about our opinions of them. Which, for the most part, all of us agree that it’s despicable that a mother can watch her husband beat their child to death. No one on here has ever said “Hey, maybe she was frozen in shock or fear”.

The fact that you are so quick to dismiss the education of others suggests you don’t have much of your own. This isn’t just the opinion of some random quack. This is an opinion derived from a number of sources that have researched human behavior. This is well-established. If you folks want to plug your ears and go “Lalalalalala…”, it’s really of no consequence.

That’s pretty mean of you to say, especially when I was making valid points. Not trying to insult anyone at all, however remember that key quote? “Just because someone has a degree, doesn’t mean they know jack shit”. I’m not trying to insult anyone, I was just pointing out the flaws of such research and asking questions about it myself.

I just find it highly incredible that you insulted my intelligence and supposed lack of schooling just from a few general observations. I wasn’t discrediting anyone in particular, I was just stating that there was no guarantee that the study was 100% fool-proof.

Oh and just for the record, I completed college. I put off taking more classes for so long because (/gasp) I had kids, and constantly move around. So, no, I don’t consider myself uneducated – which you seemed to have guessed I was…? If anything, my points should have opened your eyes a little to the fact that I AM educated…not the opposite? It’s not like I’m typing like a tard or anything…

It’s tragic that you think this is about personal insults and being right, for me. You want to talk insulting? I wonder how Mom-of-4 might feel about AELWINN casually suggesting that her education is meaningless. Because, hey, anyone can hop online and get a degree, right?

I do, however, agree with your last sarcastic comment. ANYONE can get a degree, it’s knowing how to use it…that makes them shine. At least in my eyes.

Like I said before I even posted those two huge walls of text, I was just stating my opinion and reasons for flaws in the theory of genetics causing people to be basically chickenshit.

I guess to me, 10 minutes is a lifetime. 100+ kicks would give me more than enough time to get into my trunk/car and pull out something heavy. Not everyone would do it in the same amount of time as me, however…I find it insane that only TWO people out of all those people tried to do something.

To me, ThePooh5 put it better than I ever could. I do have to say as a final word on this subject, the frozen in fear thing…I just can’t buy it. Not from the mother that puts her penis first, and not from someone that stands there and watches a guy kick a baby. I can understand a split moment or two…but anything after say…3minutes? That’s when the “fear” wears off.

How about this for food for thought…what if they were in such a state of shock at what they were seeing, that they just didn’t KNOW how to react? I mean this is a rural area right? I’m sure that elderly couple was stopping their car going … “wait wtf is THAT?!” But at least they ACTED by calling the cops.

I’d like to add, just to strive my point home, in the video of the crime scene…remember how people were making comments about the cows looking on? When there are cows, there is fencing. When there is a fence, there is a loose piece that can prolly be used. Just a general assumption.

Ok and now I’m officially done with this “debate”, IF you can call it that. Didn’t know my intelligence was going to be attacked so openly just for having an opinion and don’t really feel like debating with someone who feels like flinging insults at ONE person when there were at least 4 OTHER people agreeing with me.

The fact that you are so quick to dismiss the education of others suggests you don’t have much of your own. This isn’t just the opinion of some random quack. This is an opinion derived from a number of sources that have researched human behavior. This is well-established. If you folks want to plug your ears and go “Lalalalalala…”, it’s really of no consequence.

That’s pretty mean of you to say, especially when I was making valid points. Not trying to insult anyone at all, however remember that key quote? “Just because someone has a degree, doesn’t mean they know jack shit”. I’m not trying to insult anyone, I was just pointing out the flaws of such research and asking questions about it myself.

I just find it highly incredible that you insulted my intelligence and supposed lack of schooling just from a few general observations. I wasn’t discrediting anyone in particular, I was just stating that there was no guarantee that the study was 100% fool-proof.

Oh and just for the record, I completed college. I put off taking more classes for so long because (/gasp) I had kids, and constantly move around. So, no, I don’t consider myself uneducated – which you seemed to have guessed I was…? If anything, my points should have opened your eyes a little to the fact that I AM educated…not the opposite? It’s not like I’m typing like a tard or anything…

It’s tragic that you think this is about personal insults and being right, for me. You want to talk insulting? I wonder how Mom-of-4 might feel about AELWINN casually suggesting that her education is meaningless. Because, hey, anyone can hop online and get a degree, right?

I do, however, agree with your last sarcastic comment. ANYONE can get a degree, it’s knowing how to use it…that makes them shine. At least in my eyes.

Like I said before I even posted those two huge walls of text, I was just stating my opinion and reasons for flaws in the theory of genetics causing people to be basically chickenshit.

I guess to me, 10 minutes is a lifetime. 100+ kicks would give me more than enough time to get into my trunk/car and pull out something heavy. Not everyone would do it in the same amount of time as me, however…I find it insane that only TWO people out of all those people tried to do something.

To me, ThePooh5 put it better than I ever could. I do have to say as a final word on this subject, the frozen in fear thing…I just can’t buy it. Not from the mother that puts her penis first, and not from someone that stands there and watches a guy kick a baby. I can understand a split moment or two…but anything after say…3minutes? That’s when the “fear” wears off.

How about this for food for thought…what if they were in such a state of shock at what they were seeing, that they just didn’t KNOW how to react? I mean this is a rural area right? I’m sure that elderly couple was stopping their car going … “wait wtf is THAT?!” But at least they ACTED by calling the cops.

I’d like to add, just to strive my point home, in the video of the crime scene…remember how people were making comments about the cows looking on? When there are cows, there is fencing. When there is a fence, there is a loose piece that can prolly be used. Just a general assumption.

Ok and now I’m officially done with this “debate”, IF you can call it that. Didn’t know my intelligence was going to be attacked so openly just for having an opinion and don’t really feel like debating with someone who feels like flinging insults at ONE person when there were at least 4 OTHER people agreeing with me.

The fact that you are so quick to dismiss the education of others suggests you don’t have much of your own. This isn’t just the opinion of some random quack. This is an opinion derived from a number of sources that have researched human behavior. This is well-established. If you folks want to plug your ears and go “Lalalalalala…”, it’s really of no consequence.

That’s pretty mean of you to say, especially when I was making valid points. Not trying to insult anyone at all, however remember that key quote? “Just because someone has a degree, doesn’t mean they know jack shit”. I’m not trying to insult anyone, I was just pointing out the flaws of such research and asking questions about it myself.

I just find it highly incredible that you insulted my intelligence and supposed lack of schooling just from a few general observations. I wasn’t discrediting anyone in particular, I was just stating that there was no guarantee that the study was 100% fool-proof.

Oh and just for the record, I completed college. I put off taking more classes for so long because (/gasp) I had kids, and constantly move around. So, no, I don’t consider myself uneducated – which you seemed to have guessed I was…? If anything, my points should have opened your eyes a little to the fact that I AM educated…not the opposite? It’s not like I’m typing like a tard or anything…

It’s tragic that you think this is about personal insults and being right, for me. You want to talk insulting? I wonder how Mom-of-4 might feel about AELWINN casually suggesting that her education is meaningless. Because, hey, anyone can hop online and get a degree, right?

I do, however, agree with your last sarcastic comment. ANYONE can get a degree, it’s knowing how to use it…that makes them shine. At least in my eyes.

Like I said before I even posted those two huge walls of text, I was just stating my opinion and reasons for flaws in the theory of genetics causing people to be basically chickenshit.

I guess to me, 10 minutes is a lifetime. 100+ kicks would give me more than enough time to get into my trunk/car and pull out something heavy. Not everyone would do it in the same amount of time as me, however…I find it insane that only TWO people out of all those people tried to do something.

To me, ThePooh5 put it better than I ever could. I do have to say as a final word on this subject, the frozen in fear thing…I just can’t buy it. Not from the mother that puts her penis first, and not from someone that stands there and watches a guy kick a baby. I can understand a split moment or two…but anything after say…3minutes? That’s when the “fear” wears off.

How about this for food for thought…what if they were in such a state of shock at what they were seeing, that they just didn’t KNOW how to react? I mean this is a rural area right? I’m sure that elderly couple was stopping their car going … “wait wtf is THAT?!” But at least they ACTED by calling the cops.

I’d like to add, just to strive my point home, in the video of the crime scene…remember how people were making comments about the cows looking on? When there are cows, there is fencing. When there is a fence, there is a loose piece that can prolly be used. Just a general assumption.

Ok and now I’m officially done with this “debate”, IF you can call it that. Didn’t know my intelligence was going to be attacked so openly just for having an opinion and don’t really feel like debating with someone who feels like flinging insults at ONE person when there were at least 4 OTHER people agreeing with me.

Athena: You keep talking about all the research and studies. I have only one thing to say about all the data, research, findings and conclusions – they are FLAWED. Flawed? Yes, flawed. The data used for this study is flawed. Which in turn, means the research and study was flawed. Thus, the findings and conclusions are flawed.

Now, to prove this, the researchers have relied on one main source of data to make these conclusions – MAN. The reason all this data is flawed, even with the best intentions and not questioning anyones intelligence, is this one undisputable fact: MANS NATURE AND ABILITY TO LIE!!! There is no way to obtain untaintable data, given the source it comes from. Its much easier to lie than to “fess-up” and say, I was afraid I might get hurt, so I just let the baby get beat on.

The whole point is: How do we know if it was genetics, training, or cowardice?

BINGO! That’s my point, too. We DON’T know which is which and who is who, so why are we assuming the worst about ALL of them and wishing horrible things for these people?

NO, that’s my point! Your argument, from the beginning, was – due to several studies and researches, from a number of educated sources — “these people COULD NOT help themselves”, either because they HAD NOT had the proper training or they were genetically dispositioned NOT TO react to help.” You stated with your own posts that, these people did nothing wrong because they did not act, as the “research data”shows, it was not their faults and we shouldn’t hold them accountable. They only way they should not be held accountable is if they can prove they were just not able to overcome this genetic predispositioning or they had not had any crisis training.

Now before you were saying according to the data, the people couldn’t help themselves because of this or that reason. EXCUSING them for their inactions. Why are you so certain that they could not act? You have nothing but their words, which in any other case, is not just accepted for fact and truth and certainly not published as fact.

Then, you say, “BINGO” how do we know why they didn’t act?” – The question is: How can you, 100% excuse them, without knowing for a fact, they didn’t just use the “paralyzed” or “in shock” excuse” to keep from having to admit they were chicken shit?

Your data doesn’t excuse ANY of them because there is no way to prove who COULDN’T act (because that is the story the bystander told) and no way to prove who DIDN’T act because they were just selfish, chicken shits who had more concern for their own ass than a baby. You are relying on someones’, anyones’ words, whose credibility may be less than questionable. Certainly their testicular fortitude is lacking.

You don’t know these people were justified by “doing all they knew how to do” – they could very well be more concerned with their own well being than that of a small childs which equals chickshit.

You were using data to excuse them. Again, I ask you, within that data, what is the criteria for determining the difference for those who could not act and those who were just too sorry, selfish and chickenshit to act?

That’s where your abused mother analogy falls short. For as long as she is faced with immediate danger, she is not charged with anything. If there is no longer danger and she still fails to act, that is when charges are considered. By the time these folks were no longer in immediate danger, it was too late. They shouldn’t be judged for that.

These folks were at no time in immediate danger. He was never aggressive to the useless bystanders, he even helped turn on the DAMN FLASHERS, he was calm, he wasn’t yelling. So when in the hell did they fear their lives were in immediate danger? Shocked maybe – but that should have passed after the first 5 or 10 stomps to the baby.

An abused woman, however, just because the beating stopped at 9:30 pm and he got up and left for work at 8:00 am the next day – how does that give her any “after the fact” and she should call, the immediate danger is gone? – She is more likely “mind controlled” than any of the bystanders. She is in super fear, of what will happen when he finds out she’s left, or called police. They know woman know they can be found at shelters. What ongoing threat were the bystanders gonna face after this one event in their lives? What ongoing threat will there be to an already conditioned, abused woman, as soon as, the prick makes bail?

One last time, give me the criteria that differentiates between those who could not act and those who choose not to act out of “its not my business”? If you can prove the data is not flawed because man’s ability to lie does not exist, then maybe the research is correct. Otherwise, since man can lie, I’ll have to stick with the data is flawed.

Athena: You keep talking about all the research and studies. I have only one thing to say about all the data, research, findings and conclusions – they are FLAWED. Flawed? Yes, flawed. The data used for this study is flawed. Which in turn, means the research and study was flawed. Thus, the findings and conclusions are flawed.

Now, to prove this, the researchers have relied on one main source of data to make these conclusions – MAN. The reason all this data is flawed, even with the best intentions and not questioning anyones intelligence, is this one undisputable fact: MANS NATURE AND ABILITY TO LIE!!! There is no way to obtain untaintable data, given the source it comes from. Its much easier to lie than to “fess-up” and say, I was afraid I might get hurt, so I just let the baby get beat on.

The whole point is: How do we know if it was genetics, training, or cowardice?

BINGO! That’s my point, too. We DON’T know which is which and who is who, so why are we assuming the worst about ALL of them and wishing horrible things for these people?

NO, that’s my point! Your argument, from the beginning, was – due to several studies and researches, from a number of educated sources — “these people COULD NOT help themselves”, either because they HAD NOT had the proper training or they were genetically dispositioned NOT TO react to help.” You stated with your own posts that, these people did nothing wrong because they did not act, as the “research data”shows, it was not their faults and we shouldn’t hold them accountable. They only way they should not be held accountable is if they can prove they were just not able to overcome this genetic predispositioning or they had not had any crisis training.

Now before you were saying according to the data, the people couldn’t help themselves because of this or that reason. EXCUSING them for their inactions. Why are you so certain that they could not act? You have nothing but their words, which in any other case, is not just accepted for fact and truth and certainly not published as fact.

Then, you say, “BINGO” how do we know why they didn’t act?” – The question is: How can you, 100% excuse them, without knowing for a fact, they didn’t just use the “paralyzed” or “in shock” excuse” to keep from having to admit they were chicken shit?

Your data doesn’t excuse ANY of them because there is no way to prove who COULDN’T act (because that is the story the bystander told) and no way to prove who DIDN’T act because they were just selfish, chicken shits who had more concern for their own ass than a baby. You are relying on someones’, anyones’ words, whose credibility may be less than questionable. Certainly their testicular fortitude is lacking.

You don’t know these people were justified by “doing all they knew how to do” – they could very well be more concerned with their own well being than that of a small childs which equals chickshit.

You were using data to excuse them. Again, I ask you, within that data, what is the criteria for determining the difference for those who could not act and those who were just too sorry, selfish and chickenshit to act?

That’s where your abused mother analogy falls short. For as long as she is faced with immediate danger, she is not charged with anything. If there is no longer danger and she still fails to act, that is when charges are considered. By the time these folks were no longer in immediate danger, it was too late. They shouldn’t be judged for that.

These folks were at no time in immediate danger. He was never aggressive to the useless bystanders, he even helped turn on the DAMN FLASHERS, he was calm, he wasn’t yelling. So when in the hell did they fear their lives were in immediate danger? Shocked maybe – but that should have passed after the first 5 or 10 stomps to the baby.

An abused woman, however, just because the beating stopped at 9:30 pm and he got up and left for work at 8:00 am the next day – how does that give her any “after the fact” and she should call, the immediate danger is gone? – She is more likely “mind controlled” than any of the bystanders. She is in super fear, of what will happen when he finds out she’s left, or called police. They know woman know they can be found at shelters. What ongoing threat were the bystanders gonna face after this one event in their lives? What ongoing threat will there be to an already conditioned, abused woman, as soon as, the prick makes bail?

One last time, give me the criteria that differentiates between those who could not act and those who choose not to act out of “its not my business”? If you can prove the data is not flawed because man’s ability to lie does not exist, then maybe the research is correct. Otherwise, since man can lie, I’ll have to stick with the data is flawed.