So I totally reject the fact that I do not understand what its like to be a parent and have to worry and care about a child just because I did not push her out of my vagina!

I understand what you're saying, I certainly don't think it's any different in either situation. When you have a child in your care whom you love, it's all the same.

Well said Athena. I know all the neighbors on my block. Do we get along? Not much, but do we watch out for each other? Yes. Do I know all the neighbors in my sub-division, hell no. There are over 4000 at least.

Village mentallity. Very similar to project housing in the states.

Absolutely. Once again, to reference my time in the hood - Low income housing communities tend to experience the familiarity that suburbs once enjoyed. They almost have to from a shared-resource perspective. Suburban families don't have to ask for sugar or flour as often because they've likely got it in stock. When you're out on your patio in suburbia, random people don't have to walk across it to get to their own homes.

When I lived there, I knew every one of my neighbors. I might not have been on good terms with all of them, but we were all on a first name basis. There were little kids who would play at and in my house even though I didn't have any kids of my own. On an occasion or two, we'd have to return an escaped toddler to their home. This was nothing unusual. If I scolded a child for misbehaving, the parents never responded in that arrogant, suburban, "how dare you discipline my child" way that seems to have grown common. Hell, hood parents need all the extra help they can get. Even though I didn't have my own kids, I had expressed permission from three different households to spank theirs, if necessary (I never did, though).

The typical suburban "I don't know my neighbors" complaint is self-fulfilling, to an extent. You don't know your neighbors, therefore you are distrusting, therefore you don't bother to get to know them. Do something about it. If not knowing your neighbors adds to your distrust of your surroundings, throw a block party. We are social creatures, human beings - we LOVE an excuse to get together and introduce ourselves. Too often, however, we wait for someone else to make the first move. How 'bout you be that person, for a change?

Asp, darling, you’re fabulous. Your opinion is real and heart-felt. The packaging it comes in is secondary.

thanks ~blushes~

And the side boob in your avatar is awesome.

lol yeah im HOT! lol

All parenting skills and discussions aside. I think this is also a cultural deal. They just spent 20 years in what I would almost consider a concentration camp ( no offense meant to anyone). In those 20 years, it's a small enclosed environment. They have children, they allow said children to wander around. No big deal. Now they move into an apartment complex, ok. Once again, small enclosed environment. Tiny living conditions, allow the girl to wander/stalk off. Go to friends house... or another apartment. Village mentallity. Very similar to project housing in the states. Did he expect his daughter to be killed, fuck no, but did he even have the idea it could happen, no he didn't.

Sorry I’m not as good as Athena nor as eloquent as Kathy this is just IMHO.

And the side boob in your avatar is awesome.

Asp, darling, you're fabulous. Your opinion is real and heart-felt. The packaging it comes in is secondary. :)

You being the biological parent of a child will never know what it is like when being the primary care giver of a child, walking the floors, feeding, caring for every need and desire of an infant, having to take her to summer school because a suitable baby sitter was not available. And then to have her cracked out mother take her out of state on a whim.

Maybe it is that people in my position love and cherish just a tad bit more because things that you consider mundane are small joys for us. You think having to give a bath before bed is a hassle, I find that time I get to spend with my girls a treat. You have to hurry home and make dinner for the kids. I find this time with them all dressed in little aprons with flour all over the kitchen more fun and exciting than an amusement park. And if dinner is 30 minuets late because I had to show her 4 times how to crack an egg without getting shell in it….so be it.

My sister had my oldest niece when I was 13 she was 17, she dropped the baby of at my parents home. And went out to be 17, well like I said I was one of 3 that was responsible for the child, I had her until she was 4 and old enough to not be the bother that an infant was. So her mother decided to follow a dick to another state. And I nor my parents were not able to say anything to her because she was the “mother”.

So I totally reject the fact that I do not understand what its like to be a parent and have to worry and care about a child just because I did not push her out of my vagina!

Sorry I’m not as good as Athena nor as eloquent as Kathy this is just IMHO.

I found the “who cares if I smother them so badly they need therapy, at least they’ll be alive” to be especially disturbing and short-sighted. That kind of shit is crippling.

I believe too that there has to be a happy median. I certainly don't want either of these things to happen to my child. Maybe I did jump the gun by saying that this father is in the wrong, all situations are different. As parents, I suppose you have to gauge how mature your child is, the area they will be spending time in, etc. I personally, let my son play in the yard by himself, since we live in a good neighborhood. I do find myself basically watching him through the window, out of paranoia, but I try not to let him see me. However, I dont think I would let my son walk around an apartment complex unsupervised. That's just my personal opinion, I certainly don't think the father did this out of negligence.

I will also say this, it rubs me the wrong way when someone who is not yet a parent (not someone who took care of someone else’s kid, but a parent) tells me that not letting my 7 year old wander outside alone is “crippling” him. I hope you can understand how that might make others feel.

I should have been more specific. My comments about potentially crippling overprotection aren't directed toward the parent who doesn't let their 7 year old walk around an apartment complex alone. While I, personally, consider that to tend toward overprotection, it is, by no means, damaging, in my opinion. I spoke harshly initially because of the apparent shock and, perhaps, even disgust that was immediately shown at the thought of this man allowing his daughter to "walk it off". Allowing a child to walk around in their own apartment complex should not be viewed with such distain.

My concern, however, is for the parent who won't let an 8 year old play in their own yard without being right there, or the parent who won't let their 12 year old play at the park at the end of the block. Both of these individuals have stated that they live in good neighborhoods. So, why the super short leash? These parents risk ("risk", not "guarantee") alienating their children (yes, those of us who had freedom as kids tended to exclude those who didn't for obvious reasons) and stunting their child's ability to develop. For what? A false sense of security. Your kid is still most likely to be victimized by someone they know and trust.

I found the "who cares if I smother them so badly they need therapy, at least they'll be alive" comment to be especially disturbing and short-sighted. That kind of shit is crippling. And I get lectured about what is a healthy situation for a kid?

Since it's come into question -

I was the legal guardian of my younger sister for three years, from the age of 15 on. For two years prior to that, however, I essentially had joint custody. She would stay with my parents during the week but spend weekends and vacation at my house. I was the liason during those two years between our family and the school and, occasionally, my family and the police. She also lived with me for a year after turning 18 because, as a result of flunking her freshman year of high school, it took her an extra year to graduate, and I insisted she get her diploma rather than a GED.

So, to recap - for 4 years I was completely responsible for her. For 2 prior to that, I was partially responsible for her.

Despite the fact that she was, essentially, "damaged goods" when I usurped custody of her and the fact that we lived in a less than desirable area, I recognized the necessity to give her some freedom. For all the reasons I've previously mentioned, there's a big one I have not - Resentment. If a child grows to resent the person who cares for them, it compromises everything from their immediate behavior to the way they view relationships going forward.

Kids need to feel as though they are trusted at a reasonable level. That is part of a healthy relationship between a child and parent/guardian. In my experience, that feeling of trust is hard to establish when you don't allow a child the opportunity to exercise their own judgment. If you instill your child with the knowledge of how to avoid strangers, the next logical step is to trust them with it.

Apparently, some parents don’t realize how crippling growing up under such paranoid and restricted circumstances can be. Sure smothering them won’t necessarily ruin them, just like giving them some freedom won’t necessarily cause them to be abducted and killed. The truth is, tons of parents walk this line every year quite successfully.

I will also say this, it rubs me the wrong way when someone who is not yet a parent (not someone who took care of someone else's kid, but a parent) tells me that not letting my 7 year old wander outside alone is "crippling" him. I hope you can understand how that might make others feel.

We should also recognize that there aren't just those who are over-protective and those who let their kids reign free, there are variations. I may not let my 7 year old walk around an apartment complex by himself, but that doesn't mean that at 12 years old he is going to be the only kid looking out the window at the park across the street, watching all the other kids play when he can't. We all have different opinions of when is too young, and some are extreme on both ends, and some are not.

How many of you self righteous, over protective parents out there let your child believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, etc.? Do you care at all that you spend the MOST FORMATIVE years of your childs life LYING to them all the while teaching them not to lie to you?? How many of you skate around the issue when your child asks you a tough question about sex or drugs or something of the sort? Do you not realize what you are doing? By lying to them, you are damaging your kids lives and making them doubt things you tell them for years to come!!! Trust me, they still love the holidays without the lies.

Holy crap! Calm down. I could be wrong, but what I believe she is trying to say is that taking care of a kid for someone else for a period of time is not the same as being a parent. Being a parent includes adopting and such. In Athena's case, (sorry if i am incorrect), she cared for a sibling or family member for a period of time, possible a year or more. And although I dont agree with her point of view, I can understand how she has the experience to know about these things. I think that it is just the way she believes, and she would probably believe the same thing with her own kids.

I dont blame Cherry for her comments, it was the first thing I said as well when I had this discussion with Athena. I pretty much see where everyone is coming from, so let's jsut chill out a little bit.

Here I'm thinking, "Christ, at this rate, these people are going to get tired of me. Maybe I should lay off the front page and go give the forums some attention?"

...Well, we obviously see how that decision turned out. Sorry, dude. You're stuck. Well, unless you've got some other totally awesome true crime website to hang out at...Which I doubt. :P

…and why does it seem like I’m just responding to you, this morning? It’s, like, three different responses in three different articles.

Slow day at work :p.

So damn agreeable, Totemic. You're okay, in my book. ;)

...and why does it seem like I'm just responding to you, this morning? It's, like, three different responses in three different articles. :P

Everyone is entitled to a belief on how to raise their children. Me, I personally believe in letting your child experience life, make choices based upon what I as a parent have tried to teach.

Now as to the "you don't have children" line of reasoning. I have to call BS on that. Sorry, but if you spend any time as either a foster parent/s or even, yes I will say it... a legal guardian, you have shown a level of compassion that I would call parenthood.

My $.02 worth. And if necessary, I will join Tux on that stake, because I tend to agree with her.

I don’t think she means you need to have a biological child to be a parent. I think she meant until you are in the role of being a parent or caregiver day in & day out. Whether it be step, foster, birth parent.

I'm afraid you're incorrect, Mommyto3 (cute name, BTW). Here are Cherry's words:

Oh how I love that comeback. Seriously. It’s my favorite. “But I took care of someone else’s kid so I am just as much a parent!” I’m sorry, but I’m going to have to subjectively disagree. I, too, took care of someone else’s kid, and it wasn’t until I had MY OWN children that I understood what it was truly like to be a parent.

If that's true, I feel pretty sorry for that "someone else's kid". Either way, the words are pretty clear. Because I haven't popped out any children, I can't possibly know. Load of crap. Just because she loves other people's kids less than her own, it doesn't mean I will.

I really like how Ruby put it. "I will not raise my kids in fear". Kudos to you, Ruby, for keeping things in perspective. Apparently, some parents don't realize how crippling growing up under such paranoid and restricted circumstances can be. Sure smothering them won't necessarily ruin them, just like giving them some freedom won't necessarily cause them to be abducted and killed. The truth is, tons of parents walk this line every year quite successfully.

Anyhoo, one day I will be witty online and maybe even say a curse or two. I think I am too used to the old aol message boards. I swear in real life I curse and am funny.

Let 'er rip! *thumbs up*

It’s also quite obvious to me that you don’t have any children. When you do, you’re entire outlook will change, regardless of what the numbers imply. You cannot argue with me on this, because you simply have not experienced that sort of love and affection for another human being. Nothing compares to it, therefore your “devil’s advocate” idealism is nil, in my opinion.

How dare you tell people who aren't raising a child that they haven't experienced real love and affection for another human being? It's implied in your statement that those of us who aren't parents haven't experienced the real deal. Well, it may be true for you that you weren't a full human being until you had a kid, but don't pin your personal growth as being proof of a lack in the rest of us.

Not having had a child does not mean that a person limps through life mis-shapen emotionally. The "I'm in a very special place and you're not" argument is b.s.

Tux Princess,

I don't mean to speak for Cherry & she is free to correct me of course if I am wrong.
I don't think she means you need to have a biological child to be a parent.
I think she meant until you are in the role of being a parent or caregiver day in & day out. Whether it be step, foster, birth parent. To me there is a big difference to someone that has babysat kids here & there to someone that takes care of a child all the time. I had many opinions before having children (I have 3) and just about all of them changed after.

I don't lie to my children about sex or drugs. I answer all questions as honestly as I can.

I don't think kids should be barricaded in the house until they are 18 but I don't think kids as young as 7 & under should be roaming on their own alone. Anything could happen to them.

I don't think not letting your child who is 4,5,6,7 go out alone is over
protective I think it's commom sense in the world we live in today.

I will parent the way I see necessary & you do the same. Hopefully all our children will be safe in the end.

Here I am rearing my head at another post that has me all up in arms. There are quite a few things that bother me about the story but there are quite a few things that bother me in the comments as well. Shall I begin? Too bad, I am anyway.

Oh how I love that comeback. Seriously. It’s my favorite. “But I took care of someone else’s kid so I am just as much a parent!” I’m sorry, but I’m going to have to subjectively disagree. I, too, took care of someone else’s kid, and it wasn’t until I had MY OWN children that I understood what it was truly like to be a parent. And no matter what you use as an example for how wrong I must be, (healthy, stable foster/adoptive parents), the simple fact that you think I’m “paranoid” makes you completely clueless as to how a parent really feels about their offspring. It’s ok, not everyone is created to be a parent, and there’s nothing wrong with being child-free. But don’t even try to give me that answer, because it’s jive, and you know it - whether you want to admit it or not. Healthy, committed parents don’t give a rat’s ass about some benign statistic regarding the safety of their children. The fact that it happens AT ALL motivates them to keep their kids as safe as possible.

What a CROCK of SHIT!!! You don't have to be a biological parent to be a parent!! Now, I DO have my own child, a 10 year old son, BUT I also have a step daughter. I don't feel any differently about one than I do the other. Just because you don't push them out of your OWN womb doesn't mean that you aren't their parent!! How about telling all of the poor couples out there that have adopted children with problems or foster drug babies that the nights they spend awake while the baby is going through detox and screaming... getting only a moments rest isn't as real as the nights "real" parents spend having to wake up and nurse every couple of hours. What a load of shit and a total joke!

As far as being over protective goes... I have a 10 yr old that is outside from the minute he gets home from school until I force him to come in for the night. Guess I should go to jail for being a careless parent? I grew up in a VERY small town. I am not talking population of a couple thousand but population of a couple hundred at best! I woke up, got dressed, ran outside and stayed out all day. Oh and get this... It was in the middle of nowhere, 30 miles from the closest police station, and on the river to boot!! If I could move my family there, I would do it in a heartbeat and let them do the same thing.

Am I a bad mother because I let my son go out and participate in healthy fun with his friends as opposed to sheltering him and keeping him inside the house for fear of what "might happen"? No. I have done my job as a parent from day one and taught him safe vs. unsafe, right vs. wrong, good vs. evil. He has been allowed to go out and play in our yard alone since he was 5 and around the neighborhood since he was 8. What good does all of our parenting do if we never give our kids the chance to use the judgment we have tried to instill in them? What good is it when they don't see what real life is like and then go away to college and decide to do drugs, drink, etc.? Yes, I know that if kids want to do it then they will do it regardless, so for all of you reading this that are going to jump down my throat for that one, let it go. Been there, done that, heard that, nothing new.

How many of you self righteous, over protective parents out there let your child believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, etc.? Do you care at all that you spend the MOST FORMATIVE years of your childs life LYING to them all the while teaching them not to lie to you?? How many of you skate around the issue when your child asks you a tough question about sex or drugs or something of the sort? Do you not realize what you are doing? By lying to them, you are damaging your kids lives and making them doubt things you tell them for years to come!!! Trust me, they still love the holidays without the lies.

Now, before you all tie me to the stake and set it ablaze, realize that I am not attacking anyone personally. And Cherry, the only reason I used your quote in my comment is because I am sick and tired of people who a child has to be your own flesh and blood for them to be YOURS. Not the case whatsoever. Maybe I am a little pissed also at the fact that I am in the middle of the week that I have taken off of work at the last minute to care for my step daughter because her so called MOM called and said she couldn't take care of her right now. But she isn't "my" kid so how would I know what that really feels like? WTF ever.

If I have pissed anyone off or offended anyone, I apologize... But being a good parent doesn't go hand in hand with being over protective OR being that child's biological parent.

Shit.

While we are all happy flagellating this poor kid’s relatives for poor parenting skills while simultaneously patting ourselves on the back for our good skills, let me ask this. Where were the police?

The police weren't called until after 6:00 p.m., by which time Hser had met with Esar Met (according to the probable cause statement, which lists the time of his crimes at 1600, 0r 4:00 p.m.) In fact, her brothers missed the mark by a half hour, which is why they couldn't find her. So to answer "where were the police", well, they were blissfully unaware.

However, I do think the body could have been found on Monday night rather than Tuesday, so you may have some points about the handling of the case.

I don't think we're "happy flagellating the family" here. What happened is that this topic opened up room for debate on what many of us as parents consider safe. The Burmese immigrant community in that apartment complex lived in communal camps in Thailand for decades, some of them, before getting to America. Doors were left open, and it wasn't odd for people to walk into and out of each other's apartments. So I don't have a parenting issue with Cartoon and Pearlie Wah.

Pearlie Wah just had a baby - her fifth. Cartoon and the two oldest boys, 18 and 20, were working minimum wage factory jobs. Cartoon was off Monday afternoon and was caring for the kids, and when Hser got huffy and stomped off, he thought he'd let her walk it off, figured she'd be in one of the other apartments with kids who spoke her language. It's been stated that the three-level apartment where she was found in the basement bathroom was a common hangout for kids, despite the fact that five men lived there.

This is a tragedy for everyone concerned, but I don't think the police could have saved her within two hours of leaving home voluntarily. Likewise, I don't think her father had reason to be especially concerned given the community in which they lived. A lot of us would do things differently, but these people have been in the US less than a year. I can't fault the guy.

Read Marcus Aurelius, Clarise - we covet the familiar, what is known to us. What we see every day, like 7 yr old girls in a huff. But to rape and kill her to cover your filthy tracks? Thank my drinking buddy Satan for the death penalty. His black soul's a'com'n - fire up the Reamer!

If the search efforts were made right away--even with an AMBER ALERT...there is a chance that she could had still been alive the 1st day.

Good question! Why wasn't an Amber Alert implemented right away? They do them quickly for situations that involved child-custody cases.

Okay, I gave up at comment 50, so if this has already been said excuse me.

While we are all happy flagellating this poor kid's relatives for poor parenting skills while simultaneously patting ourselves on the back for our good skills, let me ask this.

Where the fuck were the police.?

Hser left the family apartment at about 2:00 p.m. Monday. When her older brothers returned home at 4:30, Hser still hadn’t returned. After searching for her for an hour, police were called to help at 6:10 by a family friend who spoke English. Because no witnesses saw an abductor, no Amber Alert was issued. While a bigger search was organized at 10:30 p.m. Monday, still no Amber Alert went out.

And the police were doing what all this time?

By Tuesday morning, Hser was nowhere to be found. Volunteers began streaming into the Salt Lake apartment complex to help, but were asked to wait before searching. Organization was slow, and by 9:30 when search teams still weren’t cleared to go look for the child, police issued an Amber Alert. At 11:15, searchers were finally given the go-ahead to start looking, and police began searching in force

Tuesday morning. 9:30 AM. The next day.People wanted to search but were told to wait why? Jesus H. Fuck.

Is it that the police in this town just don't like foreigners? Figured people who don't speak English can't complain about poor response time or police indifference? I want to know why the delay. Yes, I know Hsar was killed almost instantly, but still. My god. Why the effen hell did it take so long to start looking?

Urgh! Never talk to your husband while typing an emphatic reply! In above post (#71), 3rd paragraph, 2nd sentence should read

"I will NOT bring up my girls to live in fear."

Sorry. I now return you to your regularly scheduled ranting.

I am in the middle of 5 different things, so consider this a drive-by....

CHERRY: I have 2 children. Both girls. Ages 4 and 6. Are those adequate credentials? Good. I am with Athena on this. Always have been.

I will not live in fear. I will bring up my girls to live in fear. With smarts, yes. But not in fear. They do not roam around the 'hood at will yet. But neither do I plan to chain them to my side until college. Granted, we live in the woods, but they play outside in our yard without me now. It won't be too long before they'll have my blessing to venture a bit further if they stay together....

Oh, and violent crime against children is down nationwide, as Athena pointed out.

Cherry…Do you understand the concept of a “rate”? It’s essentially a percentage. A smaller percentage of the population (nationally) is victimized these days than 20 years ago. In other words, if the odds were, say 3 in 100 back then, they’re 1 in 100 now. Yep, I’ll say it again…The likelihood of you being victimized has decreased, fairly significantly, on the national scale. Please feel free to investigate any of the links I posted that substantiate this claim.

I think maybe some are confusing an increase in REPORTING of crime with an increase in crime rates.

Keep in mind that there are 10 fold as many places to get news of crimes such as these as there were in 1973.

R

I also remember playing outside until the streetlights came on. I also remember go to stranger's houses to play with their kids. I cannot fathom doing that now!
I am paranoid of letting my 12 year old go outside and play and we live in a very structured, safe environment....military housing!! Even so, I know that freak could be lurking next door and I do not want something to happen to my child. I think it is my responsibility to keep him safe and make him ready for the real world. I also have a 4 year old and he never goes outside by himself! Ever!
Tonight, I am taking my children to a church function. They have been invited to go by someone my husband knows at work. They were invited without me, but I am still going. I want to see the facility and the people there. Even with it being a "House of God," I am going to check it out.
Also, think anytime something happens to a child our first question is:
"Where were the parents!"

Cherry - No, having your own children does not grant you any super powers or 6th sense. I'm glad you stated that your disagreement was subjective, however. Everything you've written thus far is subjective, right down to your "I have friends there" assessment of the economy in other cities, and I'm glad you can admit to that. ;)

Look - Being overprotective is to parenting as abstinence-only education is to sex. Not only has it been proven ineffective (like someone mentioned, you're more likely to be victimized by someone you know and trust), it's actually potentially damaging. It may be easy for you to take responsibility for your child's hardship as an adult, but it's not YOUR hardship, is it? And what happens if it turns into more than therapy? What if she rebels so hard she develops a drug addiction or becomes promiscuous? Both common brands of rebellion for smothered teens.

That's what happened to both of the girls who grew up down the street from me. They had both biological parents who were non-abusive, lived in a nice neighborhood - everything was ideal. But out of unsubstantiated fear, they weren't allowed out of their yard until 12, even though there was a big, beautiful park directly across the street. Even as teens, they weren't allowed to cross the one busy street in our neighborhood. Did they live? Yep. And like I stated earlier, they hit 18 like a brick wall. This is because they were never allowed to develop their own judgment, weighing risk or navigating sketchy situations, vital skills for adulthood...All because their parents were always there to do it for them. And it cost them a lot more than therapy. Among other things, one was immediately impregnated at 18 by a drug-dealer boyfriend; the other dates nothing but let's-piss-my-parents-off gangsters, all of which have been physically abusive, to date.

I'm not saying you're a bad mother, Cherry. I just hope you loosen that choke chain before it does any real damage. 8 is still young - your tendency to "smother" likely isn't traumatic yet, but it could easily become so as your kids get older.

I appreciate your opinions, too. I've been accused of handling people a bit roughly. It's refreshing to have someone around who can not only take it, but who it ready to spit it right back. :)

Thank you all for the welcomes. I just wanted to make sure I was not annoying anyone with my posts. Sometimes, I can be redundant and dare I say boring?

We would never tell you if we thought you were being annoying, redundant, and/or boring! Never! No, it wouldn't happen!

I'm lying out my ass. Hope you're not too thin-skinned! ;)

Welcome!

Thank you all for the welcomes. I just wanted to make sure I was not annoying anyone with my posts. Sometimes, I can be redundant and dare I say boring? Anyhoo, one day I will be witty online and maybe even say a curse or two. I think I am too used to the old aol message boards. I swear in real life I curse and am funny.

The pic showed up, Athena. Thanks for fixing it.

Oh, and Hahahahahahahaha! Freakin' hilarious!

Oh and BTW, I am purrreetty freakin’ pissed that I never got a welcome.

Welcome CLD 79!! Glad to have you posting. :)

Hi CLD79 - welcome from a newbie. :)

Athena - please don't think that I disrespect your opinions, althought I heartily disagree with them. I appreciate the VERY well-written difference of opinion. It's great food-for-thought! Thank you!

And the whole “you don’t have children, so you couldn’t possibly understand”…If only I could collect money every time someone here has tried to use that against me around here. You’re right, I’m D’D’s favorite childless poster. But don’t let that fool you - I put in several years as the legal guardian of someone else’s kid. Believe it or not, no “reality checks”.

Oh how I love that comeback. Seriously. It's my favorite. "But I took care of someone else's kid so I am just as much a parent!" I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to subjectively disagree. I, too, took care of someone else's kid, and it wasn't until I had MY OWN children that I understood what it was truly like to be a parent. And no matter what you use as an example for how wrong I must be, (healthy, stable foster/adoptive parents), the simple fact that you think I'm "paranoid" makes you completely clueless as to how a parent really feels about their offspring. It's ok, not everyone is created to be a parent, and there's nothing wrong with being child-free. But don't even try to give me that answer, because it's jive, and you know it - whether you want to admit it or not. Healthy, committed parents don't give a rat's ass about some benign statistic regarding the safety of their children. The fact that it happens AT ALL motivates them to keep their kids as safe as possible.

And as far as the economy goes, I've friends in your neck of the woods, and although Seattle is a very expensive place to live, people are struggling with the economy there, more so than they are struggling here. I did not say it was as bad as certain parts of the country, but we have the benefit of a tourist economy, which helps ride out the ups and downs of this ridiculous financial weather we've been experiencing.

Also, we've considered moving there (although the weather would make me suicidal), and the payscale is significant less for our career choices. Which is much the same for the rest of the country, (with the exception of Louiville, Colorado and Austin, Texas). Well, truth be told, I get paid peanuts no matter where I go.

I'm digressing. And really, we both know that it doesn't matter to either one of us if we disagree on how I raise my children, (or other people on this forum, for that matter.) The point is, you're never more than a minute away from the box anyway. And death is only hard for the living. So if my child feels the need to whine in therapy about how I "smothered her need for life experience and adventure", then I'll take responsibility for that. At least I did what I could to make sure she has the opportunity.

Athena, the image you posted above is not showing up on my thread. It's just a box.......

Weak. We can't post pictures from Photobucket here? It showed up in the preview...Lemme try again...

Here's a D'D-appropriate welcome for you, CDL:

<img src="http://www.billstclair.com/blog/images/comebackwithawarrant.jpg">
</img>

Oh and BTW, I am purrreetty freakin’ pissed that I never got a welcome.

WELCOME! WELCOME! WELCOME! Sorry about the oversight. :-)