http://www.state.mi.us/mdoc/asp/otis2profile.as...

Back in Prison (It's a good thing)

Asslt w/Int to Commit Murder Minimum Sentence: 25 years 0 months 0 days
MCL#: 750.83 Maximum Sentence: 60 years 0 months
Court File#: 08005883-01 Date of Offense: 12/02/2007
County: Wayne Date of Sentence: 09/12/2008
Conviction Type: Plea
Sentence 2
Offense: Asslt w/Int to Commit Murder Minimum Sentence: 25 years 0 months 0 days
MCL#: 750.83 Maximum Sentence: 60 years 0 months
Court File#: 08005883-01 Date of Offense: 12/02/2007
County: Wayne Date of Sentence: 09/12/2008
Conviction Type: Plea
Sentence 3
Offense: Unlawful Imprisonment Minimum Sentence: 10 years 0 months 0 days
MCL#: 750.349B Maximum Sentence: 15 years 0 months
Court File#: 08005883-01 Date of Offense: 12/02/2007
County: Wayne Date of Sentence: 09/12/2008
Conviction Type: Plea
Sentence 4

Alexis Goggins, 7, has been released from the hospital after being shot six times.

Thank you for the update Sweet_Misery.

Alexis Goggins, 7, has been released from the hospital after being shot six times.

Bullets struck Alexis' right eye, chin and jaw. She now is blind in that eye and had several surgeries before her release.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,329528,00.html

Does anyone have an update on the little girl's condition and the status of the case?

"I’d make a sad face on here, but hell, I don’t know how. *pretend sad face here*"

Lol, Hippie, thanks for making me laugh

do we know who gave him the black eye, could that be why he was going to 6 mile with an automatic handgun ?

competency hearing for Feb. 14 and Tillie will remain jailed until then.
http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/articl...

which is correct ?

1. Parker called Tillie to see if she and her daughter could stay the night at his home because they were without heat. When Parker arrived at his home, he was on the porch holding a 9mm caliber gun and ordered the two back into the car in which they arrived.

2. On Saturday, Alexis was in a vehicle with her mother and her mother's friend, Aisha Ford. Ford had come to pick them up on Saturday around midnight when their furnace failed. Police say Calvin Tillie, who is Parker's former boyfriend, forced his way into the vehicle.

3. Shortly after midnight on Dec. 2, police say, Alexis and her mother climbed into their friend Aisha Ford's vehicle for a late night birthday get-together for Ford's mother. The girl got into the back seat, and her mother took the front passenger seat. Tillie, who had been standing outside the house in the shadows despite the cold, jumped into the back of the SUV, next to Alexis, and forced Ford to drive at gunpoint for several harrowing minutes until the woman convinced him she needed to stop for gas,

Why ? you break up with someone after dating 3 months and they stalk you ... would you stoop so low to agree to go stay the night at his house when you have your friend Ford. She looks like she is stable from the clothing she wears in the interview.

Why ? Would you take your child out at midnight for your friends mothers bday party ?

Why ? Would Tillie Hold a gun on Ford ... I am sure she was all set on taking him to 6 mile for the exchange of $5 for Gas - wasn't they already on 8 mile.

Ruby, thanks for giving us the link. Wow, Is it just me or does the mom seem sort of nonchalant regarding the shooting and the outcome of what her daughter may be facing? I don't know it just gives me a weird feeling, reading what the mother says about what happened and her daughter's condition. It truly is sad and I cannot imagine the pain this little girl must be going through. Damn, I wish I could take some of her pain away. I'd make a sad face on here, but hell, I don't know how. *pretend sad face here*

Here's an update on little Alexis, and some information from her mother...

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/14875006/det...

Certainly, parents should be diligent. And absolutely, these women obviously had an obligation to their children that was not filled. I agree wholeheartedly. I just believe it's important to not set unreasonable standards for parents. Being overprotective can be just as damaging as being underprotective.

As for the rates of criminals, it's something I'll have to look into. I don't think the rates are significantly (if at all) higher, but I don't know for sure.

Regarding the side note, I rather enjoy disagreeing with you, impqueen. You're a sharp cookie and you always give me a run for my money.

All i can really say is that when parents make a conscious decision to be diligent and careful about the adults they allow around their kids, those kids stand a better chance of surviving childhood relatively unscathed.

Had Alexis' mother been more careful, Alexis wouldn't have been in the situation she's in. I think we can agree on that. I do think that the real criminal here, obviously, is Calvin Tillie. Just like the real criminals in the Rowan Ford case are David Spears and Chris Collings. In both cases, had the mothers been more vigilant, their children might be safer today. Minimizing that fact is not going to change it.

I do think there's a higher per capita rate of pedophiles now than ever before, and certainly there are more criminals now by sheer numbers than there have been in decades past. Beyond that, it's semantics, really.

On a side note, Athena, I like you and I enjoy reading what you have to say. You're a good debater.

Gee, that's funny...I know lots of fantastic parents...Who have never once completed a criminal background check on a man or woman they are dating. I'm not saying you shouldn't. By all means, it won't hurt. But at this stage in the game, it's pretty silly to suggest that parents are good ONLY if they run background checks on the people their kid will come in contact with.

...and no, society hasn't become that shitty. For that to be a correct statement, you are suggesting that there is a higher RATE of criminal activity than there was once upon a time, that there's a higher PERCENTAGE of bad people in the world. That isn't necessarily true.

I check out my kids' teachers, their friends' parents, even our own friends who will be around my kids using my state's public court records system.

I don't care if someone has a civil suit or four - financial stuff, basic motor vehicle crap, even a bounced check or two doesn't upset me. Everyone has problems from time to time. But dammit, if someone has major personal issues, restraining orders, assault charges, drug charges or multiple DUIs, that person isn't spending time around my kid. There's a reason those records are public - for the public good. Am i nosy? Hell yes. My kids need me to be nosy to make sure that the people I allow into their lives are safe. Accidents and crazy people happen, but if I'm vigilant, they're less likely to occur. If they do, it won't be because I wasn't doing my best for my kids.

Athena has said that we can't expect the government to babysit us (paraphrase) and I agree with that. But if we're going to expect personal responsibility then we get to freakin' expect it already. This mom dropped the ball. Yes, she should have checked out the men she was dating. Every man, every time. Six months down the pike is a bit late.

Not sure why that posted (#100) before I got thru typing - this is the end of #100 post......

"Um, yes. If you have small children who will be spending time around that man, then hell yes." exactly impqueen!!!


YES YES YES - if you choose to have any relationship and you have a child that "the new person" will be in contact with - you must check on them. I do not limit the "checks" to boyfriends/girlfriends -- ANYONE. (babysitters, new neighbors (their kids may play with your kids and want to invite them over), it applies to everyone who has a chance to harm your child.)

I am sorry that society has become so shitty - It scares me to know that I am depending on the school system to "check out all school personel" before hiring them. Then you turn around and hear about what the teachers have done to students. Parents (if it were possible) should be able to review the information to approve the teachers the school system selects or something. It is scary enough to not know "first hand" what was in their background checks and then send you kid to be with them 6-8 hours per day.

“Are you only a good mother if you background check every man you date?” I guess the only part I have to add to impqueen - is Why in the hell did you even ask that question - look at all the stories on this ONE web site and the cause of 90% of the childrens deaths. YES YES YES -


Um, yes. If you have small children who will be spending time around that man, then hell yes.

"Are you only a good mother if you background check every man you date?"

Um, yes. If you have small children who will be spending time around that man, then hell yes.

I wish life weren't that way, but 'tis.

"...for me, her mother’s choices throughout this situation have been full scale, wholesale bullshit wrong."

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You're getting yourself riled up because you choose to jump to conclusions? Seriously?

Sure, you could be right - Parker could have been fully-aware of her boyfriend's criminal history. She could have neglected to pay a bill, resulting in the heat being cut. Maybe she had an opportunity to get Alexis out of the car and chose not to. Maybe she could have prevented Alexis from climbing between her and the boyfriend. In this case, yes, she would be an awful mother.

BUT, maybe she wasn't aware of the boyfriend's criminal history. They were only together for 6 months...If he chose not to mention his background, she wouldn't have known. Are you only a good mother if you background check every man you date? Maybe she didn't neglect to pay the bill. Her friend said she initially thought the boyfriend was a furnace repair man...Maybe the furnace just broke? Maybe she had no opportunity to get Alexis out of the car. During the ride, the gunman would have been riding in the back seat with Alexis. How could she have pulled that off? Maybe Alexis threw herself into the front seat too quickly to prevent. Maybe mom was screaming for her to get back, but Alexis refused. Maybe things happened to quickly for Parker to respond.

That's the thing...We don't know. The article isn't specific enough.

i gotta let this thread go. It's preemptively harshing the buzz i hope to have later. Because i'm noticing that when I continually read the same defense of this mother's actions over and over, I get pissed and distinctly un-mellow.

Alexis could die. She is still critical. She may be blind depending on whether she was shot in the good eye or the bad one. She very likely has brain injuries on top of a previous brain injury, meaning lots of rehab and probably never really normal function.

Alexis's mother will return to her life. Hopefully wiser. Alexis, should she survive, will never be the same. All because Mama needed a man. Because Mama didn't have sense enough to get her out of that car. Because Alexis knew that Mama couldn't take care of Mama, much less Alexis.

And I get really, really angry and very sad for one little girl. And i could give a crap whether someone thinks her mother was doing the right thing - for me, her mother's choices throughout this situation have been full scale, wholesale bullshit wrong.

this woman just keeps failing this child... over and over...suspicious birth trauma, attendance counsellors, living w/o heat, mama dates convicts... and now this poor baby has to be her mother's bulletproof vest.

I don't know that it's very different at all. But, it's cool.

All I'm saying is, what if leaving your child behind is the best decision for the child, as it would have been in this case (assuming you were running for help)? I understand a parent wanting to protect their child, but, if you've already failed, shouldn't you do the next best thing?

But this is different. I have no IDEA if I would have the courage to attack a hijacker in a plane, I would never be one of those people saying I would have. I have no IDEA how I would react in a rape. And I dont know how I would react in this situation. Except that I do know that whatever I end up doing, it would not involve me leaving my child behind. I don't think that is arrogant at all. I'm a mother, it's the truth. I mean, everyone on here with kids has said the same thing. And I haven't seen any sign of arrogance in these people. I know that I'm not going to change your mind, but I want to clear up the fact that I am definitely not one of those people who watches the coverage on 9/11 and says "I would have attacked that hijacker, what is wrong with those people on that plane!". No way, what we are saying is very different.

Solange, I choose my words carefully and stand by my assertions. I appreciate your attempt to explain, but the truth is, adversity is a good thing. It forces people to seriously consider and explain their positions. It creates passion. Look at the comments in the baby-shaker article. It's 10 people saying the exact same thing 10 different ways. Not exactly riveting, right?

I like the fact that the conversation has gotten this far. If you venture into the forums, you will notice that I often take the unpopular position. Discussions get old quick when everyone is saying the same thing. :)

Again, it IS incredibly arrogant to suggest that you KNOW how you would react to a traumatic situation, especially when you're saying that you would react better than the average person. A certain amount of our reaction is hardwired into us. Are you the woman who would fight or freeze when raped? You won't know until it happens. To suggest otherwise is nothing more than wild and self-inflating speculation.

This woman faced the most traumatic event of her life, and people callously pass judgment. You get kidnapped, shot twice, witness your baby riddled with bullets and come back and tell me how carefully considered all your actions were. The fact is, your actions will be largely automatic. IF you happen to make the right decisions, you'll be amazed by yourself. "I didn't even know what I was doing as I was doing it" is a common sentiment among heroic people.

It doesn't matter that she was in a public place. She was in DETROIT. Do I need to list a dozen articles of fucked up shit happening in public places and NO ONE calling the cops or stepping in? One should NEVER assume that someone else is getting help unless someone specifically says they're getting help.

Secondly, she was in Detroit AND had been shot. IF she even recognised the sound of sirens, she may not have put two and two together. When I was in a car accident, I wasn't even injured, but I was so distracted that I didn't even notice the ambulance arrive.

Again - IF SHE COULD NOT PREVENT THE BOYFRIEND FROM SHOOTING, THERE IS NO SENSE IN HER STICKING AROUND AS OPPOSED TO RUNNING FOR HELP.

Oh, and I'll kindly refer you to comments 65 & 66 where I state that I'm not defending Parker because I have no idea whether she was running for help or running to save her ass and that I'm just speaking to the hypothetical situation. So, no, I didn't kinda say anything but that.

I think, Athena, that the reason that people are getting so defensive is the way you were talking in your earlier posts. You basically said that we were stupid for thinking that we thought we would know what we would have done. You said we were presumptuous for saying what we thought of Parker's actions. If you had stated your opinion differently, this discussion may not have gotten this far.

Except that they were in a public place where the shots were clearly heard by witnesses. She was obviously aware that people around were watching, as she was reportedly running while the cops were pulling in.

While, I might add, her child was bleeding on the floorboard and the shooter was still in the car.

So no. Running for help when it's pretty clear by the sirens that help is on the way, leaving your child to possibly die with only her shooter for company? No. I'm sorry, but just no. This is one time when she should have either taken her child with her if the threat was removed, or stayed. I appreciate not moving a victim, but your kid is your kid and you don't let your kid die under a steering wheel while you're shrieking in a gas station lot and your boyfriend is still in the car with a gun. Whether he's shooting it or not, he could easily have been finishing the job while Mama was running.

And yeah, you kinda did say that Parker did the right thing in your posts above.

"And, I apologize if you thought I meant you should NEVER have children - I only mean if you choose to stay in that fairytale land of yours, please don’t include any kids, who could get hurt. Wait to have children, when you grasp the real horror and the huge responsibility, I honestly believe that you will feel like the mom should have stayed with her child. I maybe wrong you may never think its a good idea to cover your childs body with your own to protect them, but 99.9% of truly loving parents do believe that is the proper action to take - stay with you child, especially if they just risk their little ass to save yours."

You know what news websites like this prove on a daily basis? Being a biological parent DOESN'T MEAN SHIT. It doesn't make you better, smarter, and, only occasionlly does it make people more responsible. If you're dumb and have a kid...You're just a dumb person with a kid. Giving birth does not come with some inherent advantage.

My wonderland provided a stable environment for my little sister, who I had to usurp from my parents just before she turned 16. She was drinking, using drugs, fighting often and flunking classes. During the time she lived with me, she didn't get a single grade under a B, nor did she engage in a single fight. No drugs, no suspensions...Wonderland's not so bad, afterall.

Just so we're clear, I roll my eyes and chuckle at the "You can't understand until you have kids" argument. I've done better with OTHER people's kids than parents have done with their own. Parents don't get automatic respect from me.

That being said, for those of you with comprehension difficulties, please note that at no point have I directly defended Parker's actions. I've simply pointed out that we should not automatically assume that she intentionally and selfishly made the decisions she made. Should she have been dating a felon? No. Should she have allowed the heat to get turned off? No. Should she have worked harder to remove her child from the situation? Absolutely. Should she have allowed Alexis to climb between her and the gunman? No way. We agree on all of that.

What we don't agree on, apparently, is how to respond after the damage has already been done. What good does it do to throw yourself over the child who's ALREADY been shot? If you stay alive and go, you can get help. If you don't, maybe no help is coming. You'll have to excuse me for thinking that assuming help is on the way is a bad idea. I'm not saying Parker did the right thing, I'm saying that running for help is the right thing if the damage has already been done.

Look, Athena, clearly your mind is made up on this one. So you google it and do your homework or don't. I heard this detail on the news in my area, so I don't have a link handy. I'll provide links as I locate them, but I don't feel it necessary to do your homework for you. If I'm wrong and he had finished shooting, it still doesn't change my opinion that Parker should not have left her child. Especially then. If she waited until he was out of bullets to move, why move at all when the police were arriving? Why not stay with her bleeding, possibly dying child if the threat was largely over? Why leave her baby on the floorboard with that bastard and go running? That's a decision that is never going to make sense to me no matter how snotty you get about it.

Tillie shot Parker first according to this news source which also details Alexis' medical condition: http://www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=7460658

So he shot the mother, Alexis comes over the seat and says "don't hurt my mother" and he starts shooting her. Alexis has the good sense to crawl under the steering wheel where he continues to shoot a .9mm semi automatic into her (all this in the article you referenced, here: http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AI... ) The mother could not have been behind the shooter at that time unless he was sitting in the center of the front seat. Alexis was clearly by then in the driver's seat of the car. This indicates that most likely, the mother was either in the process of or had already exited the vehicle.

So yeah, I think she was out of there while he was still shooting. I'm not sure why it matters so much to you unless you genuinely think that leaving a six year old gunshot victim in the car with her shooter is a good move.

I think it's a reasonable assumption that when Ford (the driver) came back to the car and had to talk to Parker (the mom) to give her change, that should have been a pretty fair clue that she was stalling and trying to get help. If it wasn't, then Parker is an idiot. It doesn't change the fact that neither Ford or Parker opened the door and dragged Alexis out of the car at that point, before the shooting started.

This whole thing is a cluster. The mother never should have a habitual felon around her child to begin with. She certainly had windows of opportunity to remove her child from a hostage situation. She took none of them, and she left her child in the car with the shooter who did not come out until after police arrived. Whether he was still actively shooting or not, he coulda been.

I'd have gone at the bastard gun or not. Your kid is your kid. DO I KNOW that's what I'd do, well, no but I'd like to think I'd kick the shit out of him and be holding his sad ass for the cops. I live in a fantasy world and I am super woman!

"Then boyfriend commences with the shooting. Alexis comes over the seat. Mom, instead of opening the door and shoving her kid out or fighting the bastard, gets out HERSELF and LEAVES HER CHILD THERE WHILE HE IS SHOOTING HER. He was still shooting her child, and she LEFT, with a third party already out of the car trying to get help."

At what point in the article does it state that the man was STILL shooting when Parker exited the car? That would certainly change my opinion of the situation, but frankly, I don't know where you came up with that.

Furthermore, Parker may have had no idea that the third party was trying to or was successful in getting help, so that point of yours is null.

impqueen - better explaination than mine!!! - I have fricking "dial up" - waiting on DSL, if the techs don't come soon I'm gonna freak out - about 10 posts are made between reading writing and clicking the "submit comment" button.

Again, very, very good explaination!!

Athena - you asked to help you understand - o-kay.. If she were able to run, she also could have thrown her body over her child to shield the child from any more shots, after all the little girl just did the same thing for her - she didn't want her mommy to get hurt - where was the mom's same concern? Her mom should have been covering her little body instead of running away - most 9's can actually hold 10 bullets if you put one in the barrel, that could leave the possibility of two more bullets, next they also sell 15 round clips so he could of had 7-8 more bullets (depending on full clip and one in barrel) to pump up poor little Alexis.

You commented on "what" she was screaming - if you notice it wasn't "help my child" - more of pointing the finger at the shooter..."he shot my baby", making sure everyone knew he did it - not one word of "help my child". She also knew there was another lady already trying to get help, before any shooting took place. SHE SHOULD HAVE STAYED WITH HER CHILD! I have been shot at and I didn't leave anyone to run for help, and we were all adults. - Thank the dear Lord in Heaven my kid was not at home at the time. And before anyone asks, the person who was shooting is a nut who is locked up, and NO I did not have any sort of relationship with him (other than shooting back) and my home is not the only one attacked.

And, I apologize if you thought I meant you should NEVER have children - I only mean if you choose to stay in that fairytale land of yours, please don't include any kids, who could get hurt. Wait to have children, when you grasp the real horror and the huge responsibility, I honestly believe that you will feel like the mom should have stayed with her child. I maybe wrong you may never think its a good idea to cover your childs body with your own to protect them, but 99.9% of truly loving parents do believe that is the proper action to take - stay with you child, especially if they just risk their little ass to save yours.

thank you thank you thank you....some sanity....

Thank you Impqueen, very good explanation. I agree with you 110 percent

Impqueen, I'll repack the bowl. ;) LMAO

Hippies are cool.

Isn't there something in rotation of the "puff puff pass" variety at this point in the discussion? If so, my turn to hit it.

I was a nurse for my entire working career. I've got ACLS. I'm not a moron or impractical - in fact, my nickname among family is "the Fixer" because i'm who gets called when crazy or intense medical shit happens. I'm the one saying "don't move your child".

BUT.

When that bastard tried to force the women to drive, I'd have pushed my kid out of the car. Anytime a person is saying "you'll drive or I'll shoot", which is as nearly as I can tell what was happening, you open the door and toss your kid out. Yes, your kid will probably be injured. But your kid will hopefully still be alive, even if you're not, when the whole thing is over. So she didn't do that because she wasn't thinking, she was scared, or because she was in the front seat and her kid was in the back. I can give her that.

Then they stop at a gas station. He lets one woman out. Who does NOT open the back door, start screaming, and pull the child out of the car. The mother does not yell for her child to run and get out. They sit there and wait while the driver tries unsuccessfully to get help, goes back to the car, gets change, and goes back in. At no time during this long wait does the mother do a damn thing to save her child. I can give her that - she froze, she was scared.

Then boyfriend commences with the shooting. Alexis comes over the seat. Mom, instead of opening the door and shoving her kid out or fighting the bastard, gets out HERSELF and LEAVES HER CHILD THERE WHILE HE IS SHOOTING HER. He was still shooting her child, and she LEFT, with a third party already out of the car trying to get help.

That is why I have a problem with this mother. That and the fact that once again we have a situation where the cock was more important than the kid, or she wouldn't have had a habitual felon around her child to begin with. And she probably would have had heat. Alexis already had a brain bleed in infancy, which as all you nurses know means she was probably a preemie - or, possibly, a crack baby. There was an attendance agent from her school at the hospital, so there was already a record of missed school with this six year old child. Then you have the fact that a six year old child felt that it was her place to take bullets for her mama, which tells me that this is a child who is used to taking care of her mother instead of the other way around. And what does Mama do? She LETS ALEXIS TAKE THE BULLETS AND RUNS.

Alexis deserves a college fund. Her mother deserves a good smack in the head.

You're such a hippie. =P

Athena, sounds pretty heroic to me. You stepped in, and you used the power of your voice. Right on.

No, I'm not really pregnant, nor will I be in the near future. I'm only 25 and will be going back to college soon. Oh, and I'm single-ish. :p

As far as helping people, I'm right there with you. But I try not to recklessly help people because you can very well cause more damage than good. Unfortunately, the options aren't always clear. This is one of those situations. Staying with the child to comfort/shield may seem like the best option, when, in reality, going for help may be more effective.

Once, when I lived in the hood, I saw a man hit is girlfriend just feet from me. I had options. I could run over there and get between them, likely getting hit myself, or I could exclaim loudly that I'm calling the cops, which is what I did. It may seem like the cowardly option, but it had the most beneficial effect. The man immediately stepped away from his girlfriend and left, and I didn't have to get hit. Win-win, even if it wasn't heroic or glamourous.

Ummm I'm a dumbass the preg thing was a joke, right?

Athena are you really pregnant? If so, then congratulations. *hugs to you*. And yeah, we as parents, don't always make the best decisions when it comes to our children, I just know like many other Mom's and Dad's here, I'd give my life so that my child would live. I do get your point, none of us were there, I just think if it was me....I'd of done whatever I could to protect and care for my child. I'd of done something stupid and probably ended up dead, like wrestle the fuck for the gun. No I'm not some tough fuck, I just get involved.

I had my ass beat by an ex-husband one time if front of a lot of people, I made a vow I would never sit back an let someone be brutalized. Yeah, that's probably stupid, but dammit, that's just me. If I lived in a big city, yeah, I probably end up getting killed, I help people, I'm just that damn dumb, I guess.

Athena, I completely accept your opinion and that you have the courage to speak your mind, and I hope you don't take anything I say personally. And I do see some of your points. I also agree that sticking around may not have resulted in the best outcome, and I think most of us agree with you there, but that isnt the point. The point is the particular action. Not the outcome, but the fact that she ran away from the car where her child and the gunman were. And please, don't misunderstand me, it is completely possible that what you are saying is true, that she was concerned for her child more than herself, and felt that getting help was the best option. All I'm saying is that I find it a bit strange, and that I don't think that is what I would have done. Just my opinion, I am not one to assume that I know everything. And like I said, I think that the whole background (no heat in the house, ex-con b.f.) also make me lean towards the fact that she is selfish and not as concerned for her daughter as she should be

Pshhhh...

This was a bit of an accident; Kathy and I haven't had the opportunity to discuss the fact that I'm already bulletproof. We do, however, have the nursery painted a nice, unisex shade of green that I like to call "neon celery". Priorities, you know?

"Athena - if you choose to stick to your wonderland - that’s great. Just be sure you keep plenty of birth control in wonderland."

It's too late. At this time, Athena is pregnant with my baby. Yes, he/she will have two mommies. WE are planning on naming her/him "Lesley." That way I can go ahead and get the burp cloths monogrammed even though we on;t know the sex yet.

We are hoping, between the both of us, one of us will have enough motherly instincts to genetically mutate and become bullet proof. ;)

I know you're just stating your opinion. But if you're going to state it repeatedly, I'll point out that it's already been addressed. ;)

Unless the mother could have PREVENTED continued shooting, which she quite obviously couldn't have since she was unable to prevent the initial shootings, running for help is the ONLY practical option. Otherwise, you've got two dead or near dead people instead of two wounded people.

In other words, if you are physically unable to protect the kid, there's no sense in sticking around when running for help could potentially bring help faster.

ease up tiger...just stating my opinion...
and running to get help while leaving your wounded child with the animal that just shot her and could continue shooting is productive, helpful how?? since we've JUST COVERED everything else...

"well, if the woman could run from the car screaming her damn fool head off, she was still mobile and lucid, and not too criticvally injured so as not to attempt to save her own ass…just my opinion.."

And as we JUST COVERED...You don't know that her intention was saving her own ass. It could have just as easily been to get help.

"Athena - if you choose to stick to your wonderland - that’s great. Just be sure you keep plenty of birth control in wonderland.

I am not personally attacking you, really. But, I just don’t believe you truly understand why us parents feel she should have done something different, anything!!!"

I don't know...The kids in my wonderland won't bleed out because their parent actually thinks sitting idly by is better than running for help.

And yes, Pooh, I'm afraid the whole "I hope you don't reproduce" sentiment IS a personal attack. I'm not worried about it, though.

You're absolutely right. I don't understand. If you've already been shot twice, all you're doing by sticking around is asking to get shot again. All you noble parents really want your dying child to watch you get fatally shot while they bleed? Very comforting. Very productive.

So? Help me understand. Someone give me one good reason why sticking around and putting yourself in more danger is better than running for help when you're in no position to protect.

well, if the woman could run from the car screaming her damn fool head off, she was still mobile and lucid, and not too criticvally injured so as not to attempt to save her own ass...just my opinion..

"Unproductive???? unproductive is leaving your child BEHIND while you save your OWN ass."

You know for a fact she was not running for help? I would think "saving her own ass" would be quietly sneaking away. Running away openly and screaming strikes me as the behavior of someone trying to catch someone's attention. The man with the gun was after HER. If she was really trying to protect herself, she would have kept her mouth shut. We're talking about a woman who had been shot twice. She wasn't screaming, "I've been shot!" She was screaming about her child. I'm not saying one way or the other because I don't know for a fact...Nor do you.

"Damaging??? no less damaging than hooking up with an abusive felon"

Great observation...But we weren't talking about that.

Pooh, even if you were being mean, it'd be okay.

I don't have to understand to know what the best reaction to a situation is. You're right - I don't understand a parent who wouldn't run for help any better than I understand the rape victims who freeze instead of fight. Your natural reaction is not necessarily the best reaction.

This woman had been shot in the head. How much protection would she really have been able to offer? If anyone had a child who was near dead, I would hope their priority would be getting help. They already failed miserably to protect...May as well do the next best thing.

Now, I'm just talking about what I'd LIKE people to do under such circumstances. I'm not saying that Parker actually was running for help...Who knows? She may very well have been just trying to cover her own ass.

Athena - if you choose to stick to your wonderland - that's great. Just be sure you keep plenty of birth control in wonderland.

I am not personally attacking you, really. But, I just don't believe you truly understand why us parents feel she should have done something different, anything!!!

"Pooh…We’ve got multiple parents, here, advocating some pretty unproductive or, worse yet, damaging responses to a bad situation. If that’s reality, I’ll stick with my wonderland, thanks. "

Unproductive???? unproductive is leaving your child BEHIND while you save your OWN ass.
Damaging??? no less damaging than hooking up with an abusive felon

Athena - I am not being mean - you can not say you understand how a rape victem feels unless you have been raped. You can't possilby understand "oh shit my baby" because you don't have any children. When you become a loving parent your natural instincts become something different than they were - what you naturally do is altered by being a loving parent. You never have thoughts of self preservation only "oh shit my baby".

How can you view staying in between the gunman and your child as unproductive? She LEFT HER CHILD IN THE CAR WITH THE GUNMAN!!! SHE WASN'T PROTECTING ANYONE EXCEPT HERSELF!!

eww that made my bootyhole clench!

morbid, i'm with ya... 9/11 on a plane or in a car with my flesh and blood...hmmm...
as for the 9/11 scenario... in all reality, i'd be rushing the terrorist bc how many hijackings do you hear ending happily?

but it does make me sad that fewer and fewer ppl are willing to step up to help a neighbour much less their own flesh & blood... always makes me think of the Kitty Genovese story (happened decades ago...)...
my mom was married to an abusive alcoholic & took FOREVER to leave him...when she did, we got a restraining order that he's constantly violate, and not one neighbour would ever call it in...

but when kids are involved? jesus, how do ppl live with themselves!

Jesus...And, here, I thought we were talking martial arts. I should have known better with you, Kathy. @_@

Pooh...We've got multiple parents, here, advocating some pretty unproductive or, worse yet, damaging responses to a bad situation. If that's reality, I'll stick with my wonderland, thanks. ;)

Athena, I have to disagree with you. There IS such thing as a "judo chop."

I found this on urbandictionary.com:

"1. judo chop

the physical act of alternating penetrating open hands up another's rectum, usually done in hate. best depicted in the classic latino film "dos manos en su orto.""

This is also where I learned the meaning of the term "donkey punch", so you KNOW it has to be accurate.

Morbid - I suppose that's fair.

I would like to believe, however, that, if I was in the situation Parker was in, I would do the most beneficial thing possible for my child. Granted, that would have been no allowing her to get between me and the disgruntled ex to begin with...But, given the fact that I was shot twice and in no condition to fight with a gunman, I'd like to believe I would do the next best thing and run for help.

Kathy - thank you for your post #50 - I was sitting here with smoke coming out of my ears - But after that I am LMAO - I have tears in my eyes. Thank you for breaking the tension.

Athena - I'm sorry but WAKE UP ALICE YOU'RE IN WONDERLAND - DAMN!!

Kathy you forgot about how you ran to mexico with your 12 year old lover!

and Athena there is such thing as a Judo Chop i saw it on Austin Powers!!! DUH!

LMFAO!

Again. There are a lot of scenarios in which I can only assume what I would do. Would I have been able to tackle a terrorist with a bomb strapped to himself, would I step in if I saw someone hitting a lady in public, would I rush into a burning building to save a stranger screaming for help, would I dive into icy waters to save a kid who fell in...all questions I cannot answer for sure, as I just do not know.

Would I leave my kid alone in a car after they had been shot? Never.

Now, the Judo chop...That's realistic. I could totally see that. And the condoms...good call. Take notes, Parker!





(I'm dying laughing right now. The whole thing was hilarious, but the best part? I don't think there IS such a thing as a "Judo chop". That's awesome.)

"Athena, it’s not stupid at all. Considering people on here have given you instances where they have been in danger, and have chose to protect their children, that shows you that they are not ASSUMING, they know from experience."

Solange...Hippiepoet gave a fine example of protecting a child. Her (or her husband's) actions were not counterproductive. Your cute little bug story is in a similar vein. You did not pose MORE harm to your child by smacking the insect.

Choosing not to run for help or trying to remove the child from the car ISN'T effective protection. That's the difference, here.

Furthermore, a person's experience in a car accident does not speak to a hypothetical event during which you're SHOT TWICE. All the examples given prove is that, in THAT particular instance, people protected their child. Different circumstances yield different results.

All I'm trying to do is convince people not to assume so much. There are a ton of assumptions flying around, here, about people's own reactions, about this woman's reactions...The truth is, we don't know.

It reminds me of immediately after 9/11, when every Tom, Dick or Harry you talked to railed on about how he would have tackled a terrorist or formulated a plan with other passengers. Really? Would you have? Are you SURE? I suppose the passengers on the three planes that hit must have just been exceptionally retarded then. Or maybe, you're just that badass? :p

I know what you are saying Athena. But let me just tell you what *I* would have done.

I would have delivered a swift Judo chop to his neck and dropped kicked him onto the ground. Then I would have wrestled the gun out of his hand, ran into the convenience store, robbed the cashier. Stole a case of beer and some condoms. Jumped in the car, drove off, dropped my daughter off at my moms and then headed out to the local male strip club.

And then if I hadn't given all my money to the strippers, I would have gotten my heat turned on.

But then again, that's just me.

Sorry, I cant agree with you.

Just for clarification, I never meant to insinuate that Parker was intentionally making the right decisions. Her actions couldn't possibly have been calculated. She was on auto-pilot, for sure.

That being said, when people stated that they would have either not run for help or would have tried to remove the child from the car as though THAT was the RIGHT thing to do...I had to cry foul. And for people to go further and suggest that Parker's reaction was inherently selfish when, at that particular point, Parker likely had no idea that police were on the way and could have been running for help...That's awfully presumptuous.

I also think that the other factors of the story put what she did in a bad light. Like Morbid said, no heat in the house where her daughter lives, bringing ex-con boyfriend around the daughter, AND on top of that running away from the car. It just paints a picture in your mind about what kind of person this lady is. If everything else had pointed to her being a responsible parent, it might be easier to believe that she really was not trying to save her own ass.

As police arrived, they saw Parker, covered in blood, running from the truck, screaming, "He just shot my baby."

The officers said Tillie came out to the vehicle holding a blue steel 9 mm semi automatic and dropped the weapon when ordered to do so.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AI...

I don't assume the worst, I just go with the most plausible. For those of you with no kids, have one or two, then come back and answer the question of if you would leave your kid alone in a car with the man who just shot her over 5 times.

Athena, it's not stupid at all. Considering people on here have given you instances where they have been in danger, and have chose to protect their children, that shows you that they are not ASSUMING, they know from experience. When you have kids, you will understand that you may not know what you will do in every situation, but you DO KNOW that whatever happens it will not involve leaving your child in danger while you run away. There is no doubt in my mind about that. Knowing me, I dont see myself picking up my child and trying to run, I see myself trying to wrestle the asshole away from her and making sure the gun isnt pointed at her. Like Morbid said, it may not have ended as well as this story, but this lady was DAMN LUCKY that this asshole didnt continue to shoot her daughter while she ran away.

Well, goddamn it, I'm never having kids, then. It sounds like parental instinct is rather counter-productive. =P

On another point - Was she running from the car to save her own hide, or was she running from the car, screaming about what had just happened, because she didn't realise the cops had been called and was trying to get attention/help? I suppose we'll never know, but I'm not going assume the worst, here.

Athena, the thing is, you could never understand what we are saying until you have children of your own. And I am not trying to say that in a mean way at all, because if I didnt have my son, I may not have understood it either. But Kathy is right about your motherly instinct being stronger than your survival instinct. And again, like you said, the mother was not in her right mind, so that completely rules out the fact that she left Alexis on the floor because it might have hurt her further to pick her up. She couldnt have been that rational, like you say. And again, I am not trying to insinuate that I know for SURE that she did something wrong, but like others on here, it did seem strange to me that she would run from the car leaving her baby.

I remember an incident with my son, and before you guys make fun of me, I KNOW that it isnt the same as being in danger. But it did make me realize how strong that motherly instinct is.

I have a phobia of large insects. I mean, extreme phobia. If I see any cockroach or lizard (i live in miami, they are everywhere), i run screaming. Literally. I have tried to overcome it, and it pisses my parents off so bad when i react like that. they tell me im an adult, that i should understand that the insects wont hurt me, that i am scaring my son, etc. but i just cant overcome the fear.

One time, I was in the kitchen, and my son was a baby, and he was in those baby carriers that you pull out of the car seat. I set it down on the ground to get a glass of water, and when I turned back, there was a HUGE cockroach crawling on my son's legs. Immediately, without thinking, I swatted it off with my hand. I have NEVER touched one or attempted to in my life. I couldnt believe I had done that. But it was obvious that the instinct to protect my son was stronger than my phobia even. And again, I'm not trying to compare my fear of insects to a fear of being killed, but if you understood how strong a phobia can be, you would understand that that motherly instinct must have been pretty strong to make me touch that little sucker (the roach, not my kid) :)

No, no...Assuming you KNOW how you would react under these circumstances is the arrogant and unrealistic part. Saying that you would either drag your child from the car (possibly causing further damage in the process) or that you would neglect to run for help by staying with the child is just stupid.

My point, in regards to this story is this: Most parents are irrational when it comes to trauma and their children. That's probably why they have to stress not to move people when they have been injured as it is natural to attempt and pick someone up or move them if able. Especially if it is your own kid.

The woman in this story not only didn't move her kid, she left her in the car as she ran from it. My feelings are, had I been in this situation, is my instinct would have left me dead, and the kid alive. Maybe not as good result as what happened here, but in my case, the guy would have had full access to my head, as my kid would have never been between us to begin with.

But even so, this woman seems to have made all kinds of bad decisions in her life as gathered from one simple article. No power, no car, and dating a felon. I have a hard time imagining that after her and her kid were shot, she then started making all the right decisions and left her kid in the car so she would not be hurt further. Nope. I figure, as other parents have commented somewhat, she left that car to save her own hide as had I let my kid get in between me and a gun, I surely would not have left her alone in the car after she got shot by it.

QUOTE athena "Haven’t any of you been through a basic safety course? When someone has incurred significant trauma, you don’t move them AT ALL unless the situation necessitates it. Has she tried to pull her child from the car, she could have made the situation even worse."

Yes indeed, I have athena, I am a nurse and I have my BCLS certification, it doesn't matter. When it's your kid, you react. Instinct I guess, I don't know. Another incident...when I had my daughter she was having problems with swallowing, I was feeding her, she became choked and turned blue. I knew exactly what I was supposed to do. Hell I was trained for such a thing, but in that moment. I threw my baby on my shoulder slapping her back screaming for a nurse to come help. I remember it clearly, "somebody help, my baby is choking". sonofabitch the suction catheter was right on the fucking wall, but no I had to hold that baby close and I forget what the fuck I was taught at that moment, shit just flew out my mind, it was MY child I didn't want to let her go when the nurses did get in the room. As a mother, your instinct is to get that child, hold that child, not let go. When your child is in need, nothing could keep me back, unless I was too weak or being restrained.

call me arrogant & unrealistic if you will - but you'd have to kill me first - no way I'm leaving my baby in a car to bleed to death ALONE... no way in hell.

For most people, that instinct to protect your young is stronger than your survival instinct. The closest I've ever been was once when we were staying abroad. The building attached to ours in East Berlin was being renovated and there was some sort of accident and it exploded at 2 in the morning. I grabbed my daughter bundled her up as fast as possible, threw my jacket on and tried to wake up my husband. He slept through the whole explosion and did not want to leave. I told him, fine, he could stay and burn the fuck up, me and my baby were leaving. Once he saw the flames and embers he came with us, but in the whole thing I ran outside into the freezing snow in thin pajamas, no socks and a less than adequate jacket. My daughter, however had the full gear on. I did not realize how cold I was until much much later when they let me sit in the back of one of the police vehicles.

Oh, and...Hippie - glad to hear everyone was okay. That sounds scary as hell.

Well, I didn't say WHAT I would have done, because, frankly, I have no bloody clue. I have no kids; I've never been shot...I'm not passing judgment on how this woman reacted because I've been in one of those split-second, traumatic incidents, and I know that I simply reacted automatically. I didn't get a chance to think about my reaction until it was all over. I happened to do the right thing, but my actions were so automatic I realise it could have just as easily gone the other way.

No one knows how they will react to a traumatic situation until it happens and, quite often, people are disappointed with themselves.

~WAVES~ HI Little hippy girl!!!


i agree, situation was the 1994 earthquake, i did not give a shit that the house was falling down around me all i wanted was the baby, well then my cat. lol

i worked as an EMT for a bit. and when children have an injury the first instinct is to pick them up and hold them close, the only problem is sometimes you can do more damage than harm. Like in Hippys case taking the car seat and all was PERFECT, because if the baby would have had (god forbid) a spinal cord injury that car seat would hold the child immobile. also for me if the baby is hurt and screaming bloody murder that is a good sign. if the baby is hurt and quiet...you get it.